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Hi I hope someone can break the bad news to me gently.

Hi I have an ex US spec 1975 TR6 possible mileage 80,000 off the road for many years in the US, converted to right hand drive before I purchased the car approximately 3 years ago but only covered about 1000 miles since.

A few months ago I went for a drive and in my garage the clutch pedal felt more like a brake pedal with the first depression but then drove fine.

Same symptoms today but when the clutch did eventually go to the floor I put it in first gear but no drive.

I then pushed the clutch pedal to the floor again, again no gears and I could then feel the clutch pedal going very spongey, and after inspection a nice puddle of clutch fluid on the garage floor.

I know you will be able to help me, so thank you in advance.

 

Mick. 

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Hi Mick,

Just spotted your query.

It looks like the clutch slave cylinder has failed. It's on a bracket on the bellhousing (follow the pipe from the clutch master cylinder).

They are relatively cheap to buy (£20?) and replace once the car is off the floor and you can get underneath.

I recommend you check the clutch master cylinder at the same time and change it too if it looks iffy. - again not too expensive. 

Hope this helps and for the record this is one of the simplest and cheapest jobs to do on the clutch...... so you can now breathe again!

Chris

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6 minutes ago, Triumph said:

Hi I hope someone can break the bad news to me gently.

Hi I have an ex US spec 1975 TR6 possible mileage 80,000 off the road for many years in the US, converted to right hand drive before I purchased the car approximately 3 years ago but only covered about 1000 miles since.

A few months ago I went for a drive and in my garage the clutch pedal felt more like a brake pedal with the first depression but then drove fine.

Same symptoms today but when the clutch did eventually go to the floor I put it in first gear but no drive.

I then pushed the clutch pedal to the floor again, again no gears and I could then feel the clutch pedal going very spongey, and after inspection a nice puddle of clutch fluid on the garage floor.

I know you will be able to help me, so thank you in advance.

 

Mick. 

Sounds like the master cylinder so check under the bonnet and see if the master cylinder is leaking. If it is then the master cylinder needs replacing. If you are not confident a brake repair shop can do it for you, not a lengthy job so not too costly.

If not the master cylinder, put the car up on stands and I expect you will find the slave cylinder has given up and the fluid is from there.

An easy do it yourself repair. Buy a new one, fit it the same as the old one and bleed the system. 

If you don't now the cars history you might want to do both cylinders and the flexible hose in one go. 

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Sorry Chris and John - but both of you are overlooking the lack of drive when in gear. "I put it in first gear but no drive." A problem with the clutch cylinders alone will not do that. 

The fluid leak may even be due to the slave cylinder piston moving too far, because there is no resistance from the clutch arm (though there is supposed to be a circlip to prevent that).  Something deranged inside I fear which was why the pedal felt hard to push - now whatever it is has broken completely. 

Gearbox out.......

 

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I take your point Rob but (assuming the engine is running) how would it go into bottom gear with no clutch ? More info required ?

I would still fix the hydraulics before taking the gearbox out.......

 

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30 minutes ago, Chris Mountford said:

I take your point Rob but (assuming the engine is running) how would it go into bottom gear with no clutch ? More info required ?

I would still fix the hydraulics before taking the gearbox out.......

 

My thinking too. It couldn’t be put into gear without the clutch. I’m assuming there was no drive because it didn’t actually get into gear.

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57 minutes ago, John McCormack said:

It couldn’t be put into gear without the clutch

Of course it can !  You can easily engage gears with the engine stopped, and the same thing would hold if there was no drive through the clutch....  It's only difficult if the gearbox input shaft is going round.  I'm assuming Mick knows whether the gear has engaged or not. Trying to find first gear without de-clutching can be rather noisy, which he didn't mention so to me it points to there being no drive to the gearbox.  

The hydraulics will obviously need sorting whatever happens but the first thing I would do is check the operation of the gearbox clutch lever. If the travel is wrong and there's little resistance, it's pretty obvious the problem is inside. 

 

Edited by RobH
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Mick,

all good advice above (off course).

To distinguish between an hydraulic issue (one or both cilinders) and an issue inside the GB/clutch (like broken tapered pin on the clutch shaft), check the movement of the lever on the GB. The pin should be in the middle hole (there are 3 holes), and the horizontal movement of the clevis pin should be approx 16 mm when the clutch is operated by a 2nd person. 

Waldi

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Thank you all for your very quick replies I was away from my computer.

I am a little practical but diagnosing this is beyond me, my brother’s friend Paul is very good, he always drove Triumphs back in the day and did all his own maintenance, engine and gearbox out etc.

First update the engine was running.

Chris and John thank you, I phoned Paul and he first agreed with your possible diagnoses, but when I then advised Paul the engine was running, was not then that optimistic.

RobH I am afraid you could be going in the right direction.

I do not know if in fact I was in gear.

Thank you Waldi I do not fully understand your answer but I know Paul should, do I need access to view this from the gear lever.

My car is about 6 miles from my house so will in time need to get my tools etc to the garage, but it is only broken so will need fixing.

Mick. 

Edited by Triumph
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Mick,

the 16 mm is the required stroke (from the slave cylinder) to disengage the clutch. If you have 16 mm, at least you know both cylinders are ok. No tools needed, just get under the car near the gear box, on the lhs of the car.

Waldi 

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If you don't have a copy of the workshop manual Mick, you will find a downloadable pdf towards the bottom of the page on this link. (brown cover Repair Operations Manual):

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2H2NJt34OffMDVmOTZlZWItYTcyMy00ZDhkLTliOWEtOWU1OWRhNDZhYmRl

 

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11 hours ago, RobH said:

Of course it can !  You can easily engage gears with the engine stopped, and the same thing would hold if there was no drive through the clutch....  It's only difficult if the gearbox input shaft is going round.  I'm assuming Mick knows whether the gear has engaged or not. Trying to find first gear without de-clutching can be rather noisy, which he didn't mention so to me it points to there being no drive to the gearbox.  

The hydraulics will obviously need sorting whatever happens but the first thing I would do is check the operation of the gearbox clutch lever. If the travel is wrong and there's little resistance, it's pretty obvious the problem is inside. 

 

Not with the engine running which was the implication of the question.

I can't see how a problem with the clutch itself (pressure plate, operating shaft etc) could lead to a pool of brake fluid on the floor.

Edited by John McCormack
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Thank you John for you reply to RobH.

You are correct the engine was running I was going to drive the car to my house to wash it, I keep a jack in the boot of the car so was able to have a very quick look under the car.

It looked as if the rubber dust cover to the slave cylinder had moved back, and the fluid was leaking out from the slave cylinder.  

I am going to go to my garage today to have a closer inspection, and check if it is only the slave cylinder leaking, and try and check if I can engage any gears.

Mick 

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Thank you all for your help so far, rather long but I know the more information I can give, the better chance you have to help me.

I very rarely drive my car, but the last time was only about a month ago I drove a very short distance only a mile or two to warm the car up, on a very nice dry day.

I think even that day the clutch pedal seemed a little hard to start with.

I only did a very quick inspection yesterday in a dim garage and I am afraid my information was not to accurate so I will now do a better update.

Firstly yesterday I started my engine and then tried to engage first gear the clutch pedal was so hard I had to look to check I was not pressing the brake pedal I was not, I again pressed hard on the clutch pedal this time it went down and I engaged first gear, it went in as smooth as silk but when releasing the clutch pedal no forward movement, I repeated the process and the same again, so I switched off the engine.

Now this is where I was not accurate my garage being a little small and dimly lit the slave cylinder was only dripping fluid, and I now know no pool of clutch fluid.

Today I went to the garage to get better information.

First job for complete safety and not to do any major damage I disconnected the battery.

I then rolled the car out of the garage, this is when I realised no pool of clutch fluid just a leaking slave cylinder.

The master cylinder was empty and because the garage is away from my house no clutch fluid to top up, but with the other symptoms I doubt this will help.

I was on my own so I could only look under the car on my own, the slave cylinder was connected to the clutch pedal, you could see clutch fluid on the underside of the car, so leaking for a while, but this may not be my main problem, I doubt it is.

Sitting in the car the clutch pedal went very easily down and up.

The gear lever seemed to go in and out of gear as normal.

My biggest problem, it did not matter if I was in 1/2/3 or neutral the car would roll very easily as if it was in neutral all the time.

I am almost resigned to a gear box out, and with the help of Paul a job I am very happy to undertake, if happy is the correct word.

My biggest worry is getting good quality parts not the cost, any suggestions would be very helpful, a big theme on this forum is poor quality parts.

If the bores were good would you rebuild cylinders, not for originality or cost but possibly keeping better quality parts.

Thank you for any help you can give me.

 

Mick.   

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Unfortunately Mick, that is almost certainly a clutch plate problem and the only way to sort it is to remove the gearbox. As Neil (NTC) said in his post -  some years back there was a batch of poorly-rivetted clutch plates and it may be you are a victim of that if the previous owner used one.  

The gearbox is only removable upwards and unless you have a strong helper some sort of mechanical lift is a boon. It isn't a particularly difficult job, just tedious as you have to remove a fair bit from the cabin to get to it.  I am sure you will get plenty of advice on the process and on what bits to buy. 

You have probably already read that a common problem is breakage of the taper pin which holds the clutch operating fork to the cross-shaft. If you are lucky an extra bolt or taper pin will already have been fitted but if not this is the opportunity to do it. 

The slave cylinder is a very easy thing to replace!  

Commiserations and good luck. 

 

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If you plan to overhaul the hydraulics the most successful answer is to send your original master and slave to Past Parts who reline the bore and it will work. The replacement cylinders are often made cheaply and are not fine engineering. Overhaul yours and it will last a very long time. Past Parts are the quality specialists. 
Good Luck Richard and B

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RobH thank you again.

 

I am resigned to gearbox out, as I replied to NTC the car was restored and converted to RHD by a cowboy who eventually went into liquidation, but now trading again, not a Triumph specialist luckily, but in general still a good car.

I am almost sure he would have used the old clutch even though he had to fit a new NOS block, 99% of car restorers would have replaced the clutch, I expect him to be the 1%.

I know the basics of fitting a clutch and the hard manual work required, Paul knows the technical requirements so between us not a hard job, we have all the tools required even a clutch alignment tool.

 

I have only vaguely read about your sentence below but will now do all the necessary research, and uprate as necessary.

(You have probably already read that a common problem is breakage of the taper pin which holds the clutch operating fork to the cross-shaft. If you are lucky an extra bolt or taper pin will already have been fitted but if not this is the opportunity to do it.)

Thank you, if not lucky what could this lead to.

Hi Richardtr3a

 

Would you be a London group member I often go to the Rose of York Richmond. I do not live in London but close.

I have read the advert from the person who restored and converted my car 3-4 years ago, he claims to have fitted a new master and slave cylinder but no mention of a clutch so that I can believe but will only know when I start working on my clutch.

It is quite amazing I have only just come across Past Parts in the last week or so and almost certainly from this forum, but if needed I will use them.

As I did not expect to work on my car, I only come across companies when I have a problem and then do my research thank you.

 

Mick.

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Hi Mick,

I'm a London group member - I'm over at Hayes just North of Heathrow..

If I can help just call.

When you remove the GB look out for the special alignment bolts on the bell housing flange. Make sure they go back in the correct place.

Roger

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3 minutes ago, Triumph said:

if not lucky what could this lead to.

The need to do it yourself !     It isn't a good idea to put everything back without doing this mod, as if the pin breaks later you will have to pull everything apart again. 

This explains it:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040810181710/www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/Clutch/ClutchShaft/ClutchShaft.htm

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Hi RogerH

I know you well from the Rose of York, you even passed me when I was waiting for a bus to go to Richmond train station and I told you one of your rear lights was not working.

Unfortunately even if the London group and you were at the Rose of York this Thursday I cannot make it but hopefully will see you soon all the best.

Mick.

 

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