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This is unfortunately typical of some parts supplied these days and in this case for this application downright dangerous. I think someone neds to also have a word with Mocal as well if they are the real suppliers. Rimmers response isnt good enough (though typical)

Stuart.

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45 minutes ago, John R Martin said:

Morning All,

 

I have been reading this thread with some concern as I have part number 214890, supplied by Rimmers, unopened on my bench awaiting fitment. It looks exactly the same as that pictured above. This was purchased on 16.04.21 and is wrapped in a plastic bag labelled "Mocal Fluid Controls", a name I have heard of as being specialists in oil coolers and the like. On this same plastic bag is a label, printed on which is  TT214890 PI PIPE INLET  M UNIT RIMMER BROS LTD" which I suspect is a Mocal Part number.

The old original unit I am replacing, simply because of its age, is coming from my totally original car that has done only 26K miles from new and looks to be of a much more substantial construction. Although I recognise it could be due to age, the old pipe is barely flexible whereas the new one is easily deformed.

If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

Thanks in advance

John

I would return it and demand return cost refund as well. TR Shop will supply you with a much better item.

Stuart.

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2 minutes ago, stuart said:

This is unfortunately typical of some parts supplied these days and in this case for this application downright dangerous. I think someone neds to also have a word with Mocal as well if they are the real suppliers. Rimmers response isnt good enough (though typical)

Stuart.

Rimmers even quoted 11 pound extra for supplying the SS reinforced hose as guarantee because it is more expensive, some harsh comments in an response mail and we got a "one time offer" of getting the SS hose for free!

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2 minutes ago, ijonsson said:

Rimmers even quoted 11 pound extra for supplying the SS reinforced hose as guarantee because it is more expensive, some harsh comments in an response mail and we got a "one time offer" of getting the SS hose for free!

TBH I wouldnt even buy that from them as it maybe Stainless outside but theres still no guarantee that the inner is any good for Ethanol unless they can prove its to R14 spec.

Stuart.

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7 minutes ago, stuart said:

TBH I wouldnt even buy that from them as it maybe Stainless outside but theres still no guarantee that the inner is any good for Ethanol unless they can prove its to R14 spec.

Stuart.

+1

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Looking at the picture of the failed pipe it appears that the crimped ferule

has been omitted during the manufacturing process ( the pipe was just pushed

over the barbed end of the union with no means of securing it ). My advise

to any supplier is to check all stock manufactured from this batch.

 

                                                              Harvey

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On 5/13/2021 at 9:48 AM, stuart said:

TBH I wouldnt even buy that from them as it maybe Stainless outside but theres still no guarantee that the inner is any good for Ethanol unless they can prove its to R14 spec.

Stuart.

+1 Bruce.

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On 5/13/2021 at 9:08 AM, brian -r said:

I would not use it and contact Rimmers re it's suitability and ask for a refund.  To obtain a replacement maybe contact TRGB , TR Enterprises , Revington's or TR Shop.

Even though Rimmers are only a couple of miles away from me, for quality parts I  now use the above

Brian

 

The spec of the hose s/b printed on the outside jacket along with the working pressure in psi or bar. If not in my view rejected it as not suitable! as it does not conform to the BS standard. This would apply to any  HP. hoses from the other suppliers listed above.

Bruce.

Bruce.

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Hi Bruce,

I agree. An unmarked hose is likely not suitable. Legally, this is a vendor responsibility, as the hose needs to be able to fulfill the task it is designed/sold for. 

For us, end-users it is wise to check suitability, based on experiences with the items supplied in our market. 

In case of doubt, just ask on this forum, there is plenty of knowledge on here! 

Best regards,

Waldi

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Hi All

Couple of comments and a couple of questions.

I often use the Rimmers site to find part numbers and look at the diagrams but usually buy most stuff from DMG as they are local enough to me to make the drive worthwhile, well before lockdown anyway as the counter closed then and still is.

So first question. Assuming the hose from the pump to the PRV is under similar pressure to the one at the other end to the metering unit surely it would need to be as robust as the one to the metering unit and thus constructed the same.

Rimmers show 214890 just as your pic but 153736 with swaged fittings.

But my version of 153736, bought from DMG is a similar construction to your problem hose, although both they and Moss list it as 215642 and it comes without swaged fittings.

So how should they be constructed and should they be of similar construction?

My hoses are both very new with almost no use but if they are indeed substandard will need to be changed. But are they dodgy or are they just made differently?

It may be they are up to the job and the ones with the saged fittings are no better they just give the impression of being better quality and more robust, clearly I’m not qualified to say but really do want to know especially if they are under specified I want my circa £65 back as we should not be sold below spec items, esp such safety critical ones as fuel supply.

Cheers  Keith

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I agree:" Assuming the hose from the pump to the PRV is under similar pressure to the one at the other end to the metering unit surely it would need to be as robust as the one to the metering unit and thus constructed the same."

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Hi Keith,

some fittings / hoses are designed to have no ferrule /sleeve. An example we all know are the nylon hoses from MU to injectors.

If your hose/fittings are suitable is better answered by the fabricator (vendor in this case). I would ask DMG what quality hose is used (make, type), and ask to confirm these are suitable for a WORKING pressure of 105 psi @ 40 degrees Celsius (and even 60 degrees Celsius for the one near the MU as this hose will be exposed to radiation from the engine) in combination with E5/E10. 

Worth noting that working pressure is much lower than burst pressure. It will be reduced by aspects like temperature, fluid type, environment, crimping method and bending radius. 

Hope this helps.

Waldi

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I find this thread if factually correct (and I have no reasons to think its not) an absolute shocker!

Anybody that is even vaguely familiar with the Lucas Pi system know that by modern fuel injection standards it operates at a crazily high psi of around 100...about x3 of a modern system

Flogging hoses that are not remotely up to the ability of coping with this pressure is the sort of thing you might expect if you buy cheap from a car boot sale.

From one of the largest classic motor factors I find beyond comprehension to be honest given the potentially catastrophic consequences of failure.

If something awful happened as a result of the failure of a component like this it would give ammunition to those who want our "death draps" off the rd permanently

 

The club should be devoting its resources to getting resolved and warning owners of the situation IMHO

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by jogger321
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Good Morning Guys,

This thread has given me some very valuable and interesting reading. I have looked closely at my recent purchase and can find no evidence of a pressure rating or of a material specification and hence the item remains on my bench, unused.

As suggested, I contacted Rimmers and explained my concerns to the sales agent who, being a LR specialist ( I dont' know how I was put in contact with him- but very polite and concerned) knew nothing of the problem but took down my details and confirmed thier customer services would contact me as soon as possible.

I am anxiously awaiting their call!

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On 5/14/2021 at 7:06 PM, Keith66 said:

Hi All

Couple of comments and a couple of questions.

I often use the Rimmers site to find part numbers and look at the diagrams but usually buy most stuff from DMG as they are local enough to me to make the drive worthwhile, well before lockdown anyway as the counter closed then and still is.

So first question. Assuming the hose from the pump to the PRV is under similar pressure to the one at the other end to the metering unit surely it would need to be as robust as the one to the metering unit and thus constructed the same.

Rimmers show 214890 just as your pic but 153736 with swaged fittings.

But my version of 153736, bought from DMG is a similar construction to your problem hose, although both they and Moss list it as 215642 and it comes without swaged fittings.

So how should they be constructed and should they be of similar construction?

My hoses are both very new with almost no use but if they are indeed substandard will need to be changed. But are they dodgy or are they just made differently?

It may be they are up to the job and the ones with the saged fittings are no better they just give the impression of being better quality and more robust, clearly I’m not qualified to say but really do want to know especially if they are under specified I want my circa £65 back as we should not be sold below spec items, esp such safety critical ones as fuel supply.

Cheers  Keith

Hi Keith,

I have used a local hose supplier and I know he understands specs. as he has often given me the spec sheet. Last time it was for Codan  for E5/E10 hose when he offered their product as it was a company that I had never heard of. You will not get that from Rimmers etc. This problem with the lack of technical expertise has existed with the likes of the main suppliers of TR parts for the last 40+ years i.e. since their existence.

Bruce.

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Its interesting to see a picture by Paul Hill, on another subject, that shows perhaps the same hose but with a clamp, could this have been forget by the supplier?

John

TR PI pressure pipe.jpeg

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It may look similar, but in my friends case the hose was definitely of the wrong type, clamp or no clamp. If you take a look at the very first picture in this posting, you can notice that, even if the outer diameter of the new hose was about equal to the old hose, the inner diameter was much lager (compare the old and new barbed fitting) and you can understand that the new hose had quite thin rubber. The inner reinforcement was textile in the new hose, the old hose had woven steel inner reinforcement. I can mention that he also bought the rear hose from pump to PRV at the same time, and that on is working fine, crimped and sturdy design, just as these hoses normally looks and feels like.

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7 hours ago, ijonsson said:

It may look similar, but in my friends case the hose was definitely of the wrong type, clamp or no clamp. If you take a look at the very first picture in this posting, you can notice that, even if the outer diameter of the new hose was about equal to the old hose, the inner diameter was much lager (compare the old and new barbed fitting) and you can understand that the new hose had quite thin rubber. The inner reinforcement was textile in the new hose, the old hose had woven steel inner reinforcement. I can mention that he also bought the rear hose from pump to PRV at the same time, and that on is working fine, crimped and sturdy design, just as these hoses normally looks and feels like.

My hose from Moss (pump to PRV) had a similar thin walled rubber inner, it relied on the woven fabric to withstand pressure, and this one was also very flexible.

I only needed it for the fittings (it was cheap), to have the Barricade fitted by a hydraulic shop, and the issue became clear when I removed the new rubber hose from the fittings.

 I informed Moss,  explained the background and recommended to use Gates Barricade or a similar quality product. They said they would look into it (which is positive), but I did not get feedback if it was changed.

Waldi

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Got a mail from Rimmer that they would like us to return the hose so they can investigate what went wrong. I hope they find out why and eventually can track down who bought the faulty hose.

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I've had success using Pirteck (there a number around the country) to make up similar hoses. Because they do industrial hosing they are much more focused on safety.

Tim

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3 hours ago, Tim D. said:

I've had success using Pirteck (there a number around the country) to make up similar hoses. Because they do industrial hosing they are much more focused on safety.

Tim

+1

Pirtek do a thoroughly competent job, our dealership group used them for reinforced replacement hoses for trucks with ends fitted which withstand 1600 Bar ( yes Bar !) for truck injection systems.

Mick Richards

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7 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

+1

Pirtek do a thoroughly competent job, our dealership group used them for reinforced replacement hoses for trucks with ends fitted which withstand 1600 Bar ( yes Bar !) for truck injection systems.

Mick Richards

AS long as the basic hose will work with whatever fuel is used.

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17 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

+1

Pirtek do a thoroughly competent job, our dealership group used them for reinforced replacement hoses for trucks with ends fitted which withstand 1600 Bar ( yes Bar !) for truck injection systems.

Mick Richards

My experience of using Pirtek was that they were unable to offer medium pressure H. P. hose and if you used their 400 psi hose you got the dreaded harmonic banging as what happen to one of our group!!!

Bruce.

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THe HP hose that I consider has dubious fittings and/or materials with no swaging has been returned to Rimmers following their agreement to a full refund including return postage. They still maintain they have had no complaints with these items.

On the advice from specialists here on the Forum, I have purchased another hose from a supplier in Chiswick. It looks quite similar to the returned one with no proper swaging but seems to be less flexible and better braided externally: but who am I to judge? The Chiswick item, judging by the packaging, came in by a container from India. I have fitted this to the car but have decided to carry the original pipe in the boot as an assurance.

If anyone knows where I can buy a properly swaged pipe, made from the correct materials with a stated test pressure then I would appreciate their advice and sleep soundly at night; price of no concern!

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