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Warning! Dangerous product


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A friend with a TR6 PI, just escaped from an incident that could have gone very wrong. In the beginning of this year he bought some new tubing and hoses for the fuel system from Rimmers. Yesterday he took the car out for a test drive and ended up not far from his house with petrol flooding all over the engine bay, 100 psi pressure gives a substantial flow. What had happened was that the brand new flexible hose before Metering unit had come loose from the nipple in the lower end. When we looked at it it was a common textile reinforced hose just pushed on the nipple, nothing at all like the old steel reinforced hose. It was also much lager internal diameter. We will of course contact Rimmers, but would like to issue this warning in case someone else has one of these hoses. In comparison you can see in the pictures the old hose we cut open and the new one.

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Edited by ijonsson
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What specification hose did he order? Was it supplied for fitting on the high pressure side of the fuel pump? Exactly which item (part number) did your friend order?

Normally I would expect a high pressure swaged hose end, not the barbed hose connectors in your first pic.

The hose to the metering unit on my 6 is shown in the attached image.

If it was indeed supplied for the high pressure feed to the MU, that is a serious problem, but sometimes the devil is in the detail.

Nigel

16207576039294635255748345997157.jpg

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He did order the standard rubber hose https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-214890  not the stainless steel covered hose. It has the correct length and couplings in both ends. Your picture shows exactly the old hose we butchered to compare

 

Edited by ijonsson
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Does the hose have a brand name or specification printed on it?

I had a similar issue with another supplier, the hose was very thin walled. I informed and warned that supllier.

Waldi

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Just now, Waldi said:

Does the hose have a brand name or specification printed on it?

I had a similar issue with another supplier, the hose was very thin walled. I informed and warned that supllier.

Waldi

I think the rubber hose was stamped with the name Aeroquipe or something very similar

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3 minutes ago, Nigel Triumph said:

Then there is indeed a serious problem. I would be interested to hear the supplier's response.

Nigel

Sure, I will post it here

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Looking at that hose on Rimmer's web page the hose spec. SAE100R6 is clearly visible in the picture. A textile reinforced hose to that spec. is suitable for petrol and has a working pressure of 310-510 PSI depending on diameter, with burst pressures of 1220-2030 PSI. That is perfectly good for the PI system which works at about 105 PSI, the issue is with the end fittings, which look totally inadequate for the PI system. As Nigel says a swaged fitting would be expected.

Aeroquip are very well known manufacturers of hoses and fittings for the aerospace and motorsport industries. They do actually make a push on hose and fitting good for over 300 PSI, but it doesn't anything like the Rimmer product.

 

Mike.

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For a safety critical pressure hose carrying petrol the hose should have been swaged at both ends.

With the push fit Aeroquip in the past I have added jubilee clips even when using the recommended hose on EFI fuel rails, but for a pre-manufactured hose I would have expected better. 

Rimmers strikes again.

Andy

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This hose looks exactly the same as supplied by David Manners and Moss Europe having just checked their websites- not good news, also i have bought the same hose as i recognised the red ends from the photos from a different supplier which i have not even fitted yet so will be looking to change it as i dont feel safe fitting it - perhaps nobody else makes this hose and all suppliers are selling the same one? Very annoying!

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12 hours ago, ijonsson said:

I think the rubber hose was stamped with the name Aeroquipe or something very similar

Aeroquip is a well known supplier of made up hoses in the aerospace/automotive industry and they manufacture a very large range of hoses. If the hose does not have the spec. printed on it and the PSI rating do not use it. Its buyer beware again!  All the high pressure hoses on a TR should have swaged sleeves and not jubilee clips etc. as I have seen.

Bruce,

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My email to Rimmers:

I'm helping a friend who doesn't speak (or write) English, some time ago he bought among other things the standard rubber hose part no 214890 for his Triumph TR6 PI and yesterday after the first test drive this year, after less than 10 miles, the rubber hose broke loose from the lower coupling joining the metering unit. We consider this really dangerous as petrol was spraying all over the engine bay. Have there been any other incidents of the sort? He is at work at the moment, but I can provide the order number later. Do you want the hose in return to investigate?

Response (so far):

CustomerServicesEmail customer.services@rimmerbros.com via rimmerbros.onmicrosoft.com 09:12 (för 1 timme sedan)till Inge

Dear Inge,

Thank you for your email, I can only apologise your friend is experiencing issues with the parts supplied.

May I ask for the order reference so we may advise of a replacement unit?

Many Thanks,

 

This was sent before I had the pictures above so I sent them as well, so lets hope for a more serious reply

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So, this seems to be the result, an apology, money back or a stainless steel reinforced hose.

CustomerServicesEmail11:22 (för 31 minuter sedan)till mig

Dear Inge,

Thank you for your email, I can only apologise.

I have located an order placed in February (please see attached), may I confirm you are referring to part number 214890?

We can look to issue a replacement or issue a refund. We can offer a Stainless steel variant (214890SS).

Many Thanks,

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13 hours ago, michaelfinnis said:

Looking at that hose on Rimmer's web page the hose spec. SAE100R6 is clearly visible in the picture. A textile reinforced hose to that spec. is suitable for petrol and has a working pressure of 310-510 PSI depending on diameter, with burst pressures of 1220-2030 PSI. That is perfectly good for the PI system which works at about 105 PSI, the issue is with the end fittings, which look totally inadequate for the PI system. As Nigel says a swaged fitting would be expected.

Aeroquip are very well known manufacturers of hoses and fittings for the aerospace and motorsport industries. They do actually make a push on hose and fitting good for over 300 PSI, but it doesn't anything like the Rimmer product.

 

Mike.

I should have pointed out that SAE100 R6 is NOT the correct spec for E10. The Permitivity is poor. One should use SAE J30R 9 or higher as made by Gates in the USA or Codan a Danish company using a DIN spec.73379-3D. The high pressure grade has to be used in both types. It looks to me that Rimmer are completely out to touch and not technically combatant?

Bruce.

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I only use the Gates high pressure hoses and I still installed a stainless steel ball valve in the main feed from the tank to the pump - if the pump blows any high pressure hoses I can shut off the main  fuel  feed. By then I'd have probably killed the pump at the inertia  switch but I wanted to be sure I could stop  petrol flowing under gravity, through the dead pump, to the leak.

Edited by Mike C
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We put in a valve in his car as well, really useful when you need to fix something in the fuel system (leaks for one thing, not uncommon in a PI)

IMG_20210331_100523.thumb.jpg.1d8f40d931dd5245803419b1566677d9.jpg

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There are strange pressure pulses at play in that hose at 2150 rpm IIRC. There was a long thread sevral years ago describinf a 2150 rom misfire- softened original hose was culprit.   it follows that simple "safe for 100psi" may not be safe

Peter

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5 hours ago, ijonsson said:

We put in a valve in his car as well, really useful when you need to fix something in the fuel system (leaks for one thing, not uncommon in a PI)

IMG_20210331_100523.thumb.jpg.1d8f40d931dd5245803419b1566677d9.jpg

What does the valve do and how?

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Some technical background:
SAE J30 R6 spec hose up to 9.52 mm ID has a burst pressure of 1,72 MPa which equals approx. 250 psi (I looked at the 2008 version, I do not have access to a more recent version). Larger hose diameter have lower burst pressures.

But Burst pressure shall not be used as maximum allowble pressure in our cars, because temperature, bends, way of crimping plays a role.
In this case SAE J30-R6, which does not meet the specifications for permeability for E5/10 is the totally wrong hose.
It may appear there is sufficient safety factor between the burst- and continuous operating pressure, but R6 grade hose may (will) be weakened by the ethanol, making it very soft. This may in fact have contributed or even caused the failure. This hose is simply not compatible with ethanol, which severely reduces strenght.
It is a shame that the vendors listed above apparently still sell these unsuitable products, they should know better and from a lega perspective remain responsible for the products they sell.

This is not just about a simple component ,like a door mirror; if this hose fails this it reults in a serious safety risk!

I have had discussions about suitable hose quality for E5/10 with Moss and James Paddock in the past, and have made them aware this issue needs resolvement.

Looks like Rimmer should be formally informed too, so at teast they are aware of the issue. Is this a task for the PQI-team?

 

Best regards,

Waldi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

What does the valve do and how?

 

38 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

What does the valve do and how?

It's just a simple shut of valve so you don't have to empty the whole tank if anything needs to be fixed in the fuel system, as in this case a ruptured hose.

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Morning All,

 

I have been reading this thread with some concern as I have part number 214890, supplied by Rimmers, unopened on my bench awaiting fitment. It looks exactly the same as that pictured above. This was purchased on 16.04.21 and is wrapped in a plastic bag labelled "Mocal Fluid Controls", a name I have heard of as being specialists in oil coolers and the like. On this same plastic bag is a label, printed on which is  TT214890 PI PIPE INLET  M UNIT RIMMER BROS LTD" which I suspect is a Mocal Part number.

The old original unit I am replacing, simply because of its age, is coming from my totally original car that has done only 26K miles from new and looks to be of a much more substantial construction. Although I recognise it could be due to age, the old pipe is barely flexible whereas the new one is easily deformed.

If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

Thanks in advance

John

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I would not use it and contact Rimmers re it's suitability and ask for a refund.  To obtain a replacement maybe contact TRGB , TR Enterprises , Revington's or TR Shop.

Even though Rimmers are only a couple of miles away from me, for quality parts I  now use the above

Brian

 

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On 5/12/2021 at 12:11 AM, michaeldavis39 said:

This hose looks exactly the same as supplied by David Manners and Moss Europe having just checked their websites- not good news, also i have bought the same hose as i recognised the red ends from the photos from a different supplier which i have not even fitted yet so will be looking to change it as i dont feel safe fitting it - perhaps nobody else makes this hose and all suppliers are selling the same one? Very annoying!

Our hose is very thin, just like a common hose for low pressure, it even looked as it had suffered a bit from ethanol softening it. If you try, I think you can remove the coupling by hand pulling it off.

Unfortunately the plastic bag is long gone, but the hose was purchased in February.

If your hose really is from Mocal, it ought to be of better quality than the one we got.

 

Edited by ijonsson
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