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Hi

Can anyone help me understand the water flow around the 4 pot (3a with a heater)

I found this video that helps 

 

interested in the flow temp and rate ( hot /fast ie  nothing technical) to the heater from the back of the block, tap fully open. Through the heater (temp drop fan on fan off?)  and returning via stainless pipe to the water pump (bypass part?) is the water pushed out of the head or sucked from the pump ?

the heater seems to produce warm air on to left knee when the blower is on. ( but only recently learnt that the air intake flap doesn’t feed the heater !!:rolleyes:)

is this heater flow part of the bypass flow as in the video thus heats up first?

is the engine flow top of rad to head to block front to back or top to bottom across the engine.

as you can see I need advice  

this is helping me do my homework for another project in another thread.

 

Thank you

H

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Hi Hamish,

have a look in the WSM or here https://app.box.com/s/8e30b8221f367ea078e2

The water is pumped into the block/head.

It then goes through the thermostat to the Radiator via the top hose

Down the Radiator and back to the pump via the bottom hose and steel pipe.

The pump by-pass pipe allows water to re-circulate when the thermostat is shut.

The heater is fed from the return from the Radiator off the pump (I think)

 

Roger

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Thanks Roger

the pic helps lots

as to the heater flow

is it from pump to heater to head as per arrow ?

 

9EF2F986-DEEB-4F36-82E5-5FBC9C1B55AB.jpeg

080C0376-9F2E-42D7-ACFE-DB32A7B7EC05.jpeg

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No Hamish, the heater pipe you are looking at is the return pipe so as Roger says - the arrow should be the other way around.

The system I'm sure is the same as on the TR4 / 4A., although the heater matrix and therefore the heater pipe route is different.  The water pump draws water from the bottom of the radiator and from the heater return pipe.  The pump then pushes the water into the engine's water jacket where heat from the combustion process is transferred to that water.  Out of the top of the front of the water jacket is the thermostat housing, and that opens to return the hot water to the top of the radiator. Out of the top of the back of the engine's water jacket is the heater valve. When opened a controlled amount of water from the jacket is pushed (still under pressure from the pump) through the heater matrix.  From there it returns down the pipe alongside the engine back again to the low pressure side (intake side) of the water pump.  The radiator cap  controls the pressure in within the cooling system. 

Pete.  

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1 hour ago, Hamish said:

is the water pushed out of the head or sucked from the pump ?

It is the pressure differential  which causes the fluid to flow..  through the water jacket and then through the heater matrix, and the water pump is within the closed circuit of the heater system.  So the coolant / water is pushed out of the cylinder head and also sucked into the pump.  

The coolant / heater water will circulate even when the thermostat is closed.  The radiator-bypass together with the return from the heater providing the volume of water needed for ( into ) the pump, until the thermostat opens.  

Once the thermostat opens ; it is again the pressure differential between the pumped coolant in the engine's water jacket and the return-pipe from the bottom of the radiator, which causes the fluid to flow ..down the radiator core (which of course is contrary to normal convection). 

The water pump will always draw coolant water from wherever there is least resistance.  So if the heater matrix is blocked then more water will be taken from the bypass and less from the heater's return pipe. That is until the thermostat opens and then the larger bore of those pipes offer least resistance and the coolant is drawn mostly from the radiator's bottom hose.

Hope that helps, Pete.  

Edited by Bfg
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Thanks Pete and Roger advice helps my ideas to germinate and grow :blink:

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From the work I did looking at my 3A overheating, Roger and Pete are correct.

Not sure what the video was supposed to demonstrate. I thought it was going to show that at start up when the engine is cold, the thermostat is closed and most of the water is directed back down the bypass hose until such time as the water heats up sufficiently, to open the the 'stat (and block off the bypass with older 'stats), thus allowing most of the  now hot water to to be directed to the radiator to be cooled. The bypass hose blew off before that happened though.

During my investigations, I was able to examine that from a view of the temp gauge in the car and an electronic thermo sensor I fitted into the top radiator hose. Tests in the garage and on the road (eldest daughter noting timings and various temp readings and when the electric fan kicked in) showed that this part of the system and the fan with were all working at the temperatures I expected.

Not sure what you project is, but as in the old days I used to have the heater blower on even in the summer to help bring down the coolant heat. I no longer need to do this but keep the heater valve open (but blower not on). This has made me wonder whether I should simply shut this off in the summer and have all the coolant cooled through the radiator.

Miles

Edited by MilesA
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45 minutes ago, Z320 said:

Hamish!

Did you know I am "TR4A-Driver"? You found one of my videos!

Ciao, Marco

Marco

i did wonder if it was you with your multi thermo experiments.

42 minutes ago, MilesA said:

From the work I did looking at my 3A overheating, Roger and Pete are correct.

Not sure what the video was supposed to demonstrate. I thought it was going to show that at start up when the engine is cold, the thermostat is closed and most of the water is directed back down the bypass hose until such time as the water heats up sufficiently, to open the the 'stat (and block off the bypass with older 'stats), thus allowing most of the  now hot water to to be directed to the radiator to be cooled. The bypass hose blew off before that happened though.

During my investigations, I was able to examine that from a view of the temp gauge in the car and an electronic thermo sensor I fitted into the top radiator hose. Tests in the garage and on the road (eldest daughter noting timings and various temp readings and when the electric fan kicked in) showed that this part of the system and the fan with were all working at the temperatures I expected.

Not sure what you project is, but as in the old days I used to have the heater blower on even in the summer to help bring down the coolant heat. I no longer need to do this but keep the heater valve open (but blower not on). This has made me wonder whether I should simply shut this off in the summer and have all the coolant cooled through the radiator.

Miles

thanks Miles

was contemplating a heat exchanger to warm the oil for sprints etc .Then balance  the oil water temps in ordinary running. 
 

I have the old purc filter with an oil cooler plate. So don’t know which donut oil/water cooler would fit.

so thinking of a auto transmission version. 
 

just in the “idea” stage

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1 hour ago, MilesA said:

Gosh, that sounds exotic!

What about strapping one of these under the sump????

s-l1600.thumb.jpg.bbe54a97b3e76ddd13b5d5c11b750e75.jpg

Ha ha could do. 
Used to drive on old Bedford TK breakdown truck with hiab that needed diesel heaters like that in the winter

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Kenlowe hot start?

Or buy one of these.  Use  a 5” x 5” 12 v stuck on the front of your sump and wired to a dedicated split charge circuit from your tow car……warm the race car as you drive to the event.

 

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/wolverine-heaters-engine-oil-pre-heater-727157/

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/motorsport/engine/pre-heaters/

Peter W

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Miles I'm with you;) 

"Not sure what the video was supposed to demonstrate. I thought it was going to show that at start up when the engine is cold, the thermostat is closed and most of the water is directed back down the bypass hose until such time as the water heats up sufficiently, to open the the 'stat (and block off the bypass with older 'stats), thus allowing most of the  now hot water to to be directed to the radiator to be cooled. The bypass hose blew off before that happened though"

Without temp readings from the start of the video you don't know whats going on/is it cold to start with? and if there is an original ST thermostat fitted or the later QH item. I'm assuming that due to the flow not changing at all the later is fitted which certainly doesn't help if over heating is the problem.

I run my heater open all the time due to having over heating problems (as the whole engine bay is built in fibre glass:lol:) and have converted my heater box (sorry not a TR2-4 type) with a Y junction from CBS so I can run the heater, in traffic, with the fan flat out and it ducts the hot air straight out the bottom of the wing and not all over my cheesy feet!

I have also made and fitted a header/expansion tank which is situated right up tight to the back of the dashboard. This gives me a filler neck/pressure cap/head of water at the highest point in the system. In standard form the heater is the highest point and doesn't have a bleed/filler so always seemed to get air blockages etc...not anymore. This tank is spliced into the return heater tube. I originally had it fitted so it was in the flow of the system...one pipe in and a one pipe out but it made no difference to the way the system worked (other than I could put antifreeze in the tank and know it went straight round the system)  

Just installing a new engine and box so I will see how it performs compared with the old one (which from day dot always ran hot!) in a week or so's time :( 

Hamish, would you have room for a Land Rover Defender ( I think) radiator? Couple of my flock are using these as A. they are cheap B. they have an oil cooler built in which might help with your ideas? Also....grandmother/egg/suck... I have an oil cooler fitted with a thermostatic head unit so it only opens when the oil is hot enough that it needs cooling? I know the racing guys didn't like these back in the day as if the failed they failed in the shut position but I think that's now changed??

I was surprised at the flow and the amount of air in the system in the video. 

 

 

IMG-20120517-00168 (2020_03_05 09_55_05 UTC) (2).jpg

IMG-20120517-00172 (2020_03_05 09_55_05 UTC) (2).jpg

 

This allows me to direct the hot air up to the windscreen or straight out through the under wing vent :ph34r:

 

 

Edited by Nigel C
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8 hours ago, MilesA said:

Not sure what the video was supposed to demonstrate.

Miles

Hi Miles and Nigel,

if you watch the video on Youtube you can read the explanation:

"See what the water pump does with the air in thermostat housing and radiator.

The pump is a M O N S T E R, it blows the air through the bypass, engine, cylinder head back to the thermostat housing."

The thermostat is closed - you see here is no flow at all to the rad.

Because of this it doesn't matter at all which thermostat is fitted.

Ciao, Marco

Edited by Z320
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1 hour ago, Nigel C said:

Miles I'm with you;) 

"Not sure what the video was supposed to demonstrate. I thought it was going to show that at start up when the engine is cold, the thermostat is closed and most of the water is directed back down the bypass hose until such time as the water heats up sufficiently, to open the the 'stat (and block off the bypass with older 'stats), thus allowing most of the  now hot water to to be directed to the radiator to be cooled. The bypass hose blew off before that happened though"

Without temp readings from the start of the video you don't know whats going on/is it cold to start with? and if there is an original ST thermostat fitted or the later QH item. I'm assuming that due to the flow not changing at all the later is fitted which certainly doesn't help if over heating is the problem.

I run my heater open all the time due to having over heating problems (as the whole engine bay is built in fibre glass:lol:) and have converted my heater box (sorry not a TR2-4 type) with a Y junction from CBS so I can run the heater, in traffic, with the fan flat out and it ducts the hot air straight out the bottom of the wing and not all over my cheesy feet!

I have also made and fitted a header/expansion tank which is situated right up tight to the back of the dashboard. This gives me a filler neck/pressure cap/head of water at the highest point in the system. In standard form the heater is the highest point and doesn't have a bleed/filler so always seemed to get air blockages etc...not anymore. This tank is spliced into the return heater tube. I originally had it fitted so it was in the flow of the system...one pipe in and a one pipe out but it made no difference to the way the system worked (other than I could put antifreeze in the tank and know it went straight round the system)  

Just installing a new engine and box so I will see how it performs compared with the old one (which from day dot always ran hot!) in a week or so's time :( 

Hamish, would you have room for a Land Rover Defender ( I think) radiator? Couple of my flock are using these as A. they are cheap B. they have an oil cooler built in which might help with your ideas? Also....grandmother/egg/suck... I have an oil cooler fitted with a thermostatic head unit so it only opens when the oil is hot enough that it needs cooling? I know the racing guys didn't like these back in the day as if the failed they failed in the shut position but I think that's now changed??

I was surprised at the flow and the amount of air in the system in the video. 

 

 

IMG-20120517-00168 (2020_03_05 09_55_05 UTC) (2).jpg

IMG-20120517-00172 (2020_03_05 09_55_05 UTC) (2).jpg

 

This allows me to direct the hot air up to the windscreen or straight out through the under wing vent :ph34r:

 

 

Contemplating this type of thing to heat the oil in competition mornings and they act as a cooler. As they balance out the water and oil temps

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274697331959

 

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14 hours ago, Nigel C said:

Miles I'm with you;) 

"Not sure what the video was supposed to demonstrate. I thought it was going to show that at start up when the engine is cold, the thermostat is closed and most of the water is directed back down the bypass hose until such time as the water heats up sufficiently, to open the the 'stat (and block off the bypass with older 'stats), thus allowing most of the  now hot water to to be directed to the radiator to be cooled. The bypass hose blew off before that happened though"

Without temp readings from the start of the video you don't know whats going on/is it cold to start with? and if there is an original ST thermostat fitted or the later QH item. I'm assuming that due to the flow not changing at all the later is fitted which certainly doesn't help if over heating is the problem.

I run my heater open all the time due to having over heating problems (as the whole engine bay is built in fibre glass:lol:) and have converted my heater box (sorry not a TR2-4 type) with a Y junction from CBS so I can run the heater, in traffic, with the fan flat out and it ducts the hot air straight out the bottom of the wing and not all over my cheesy feet!

I have also made and fitted a header/expansion tank which is situated right up tight to the back of the dashboard. This gives me a filler neck/pressure cap/head of water at the highest point in the system. In standard form the heater is the highest point and doesn't have a bleed/filler so always seemed to get air blockages etc...not anymore. This tank is spliced into the return heater tube. I originally had it fitted so it was in the flow of the system...one pipe in and a one pipe out but it made no difference to the way the system worked (other than I could put antifreeze in the tank and know it went straight round the system)  

Just installing a new engine and box so I will see how it performs compared with the old one (which from day dot always ran hot!) in a week or so's time :( 

Hamish, would you have room for a Land Rover Defender ( I think) radiator? Couple of my flock are using these as A. they are cheap B. they have an oil cooler built in which might help with your ideas? Also....grandmother/egg/suck... I have an oil cooler fitted with a thermostatic head unit so it only opens when the oil is hot enough that it needs cooling? I know the racing guys didn't like these back in the day as if the failed they failed in the shut position but I think that's now changed??

I was surprised at the flow and the amount of air in the system in the video. 

 

 

IMG-20120517-00168 (2020_03_05 09_55_05 UTC) (2).jpg

IMG-20120517-00172 (2020_03_05 09_55_05 UTC) (2).jpg

 

This allows me to direct the hot air up to the windscreen or straight out through the under wing vent :ph34r:

 

 

Nigel. Running your heater full time and setting up a separate duct to vent the heat away is an extreme repose but I can understand your frustration. With a new engine you will be able to ensure that the waterways a scrupulously clean. I also have a thermo controlled oil cooler although I seriously doubt its value for touring in my 3A. And 'yes', where did all that air come from?

14 hours ago, Z320 said:

Hi Miles and Nigel,

if you watch the video on Youtube you can read the explanation:

"See what the water pump does with the air in thermostat housing and radiator.

The pump is a M O N S T E R, it blows the air through the bypass, engine, cylinder head back to the thermostat housing."

The thermostat is closed - you see here is no flow at all to the rad.

Because of this it doesn't matter at all which thermostat is fitted.

Ciao, Marco

Hi Marco. I know you have done lots of experiments on heating, etc., which i have found useful, but I am not sure my own observations would confirm your statement that it does not matter which thermostat was fitted. I had used a modern 'stat and then a sleeved one without much success. I then imported a Triton High Flow thermostat as used by Australian TR owners on the basis that if it worked in their conditions it should help in the UK. 

From recollection I observed the following from my experiments. Starting cold, the water temp rose as shown on the car's gauge. The temperature at the inlet to the radiator remained unchanged. Once the water temperature had exceeded the ideal running temperature according to the gauge, the sensor at the top of the radiator suddenly started to show a rise in heat quickly. I assume this was because the thermostat had opened. The Gauge temperature then dropped but then started to rise. Then my electric fan started and the water temperature fell to the correct operating temperature. I had tried a range of thermo switches in the radiator down pipe. Comparing the temperature of the water at the top of the radiator with the 'on' temperature of the thermo switch when the fan started, confirmed about a 9degree drop in temperature down the radiator and that I had found the right combination for my car - they are all different I suspect as discussions on this Forum show. All very satisfying for me ...eventually!

13 hours ago, Hamish said:

Contemplating this type of thing to heat the oil in competition mornings and they act as a cooler. As they balance out the water and oil temps

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274697331959

 

I get it now Hamish. Will you also need an oil temp gauge to show when the oil is up to the correct temperature?

Miles

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53 minutes ago, MilesA said:

 

I get it now Hamish. Will you also need an oil temp gauge to show when the oil is up to the correct temperature?

Miles

its the fitting of the ali sump that allowed me to fit the oil temp gauge as it had a boss for it. its this gauge that shows me the oil doesnt  get hot at all. i tested the gauge with boiling water before fitting and it was good.

there has always been an oil cooler on my car (PO) and no  stat. so considering the heat exchanger route.

 

i was living in blissful ignorance :rolleyes:

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Hi Miles,

sorry me, of cause it makes a difference which thermostat is fitted, 

and when I wrote my answer in a few short words I really hoped it will not be understood wrong.

Please let me add:

The thermostat is closed - you see here is no flow at all to the rad.

Because of this it doesn't matter for that video sequenz (to show the air is no problem for the water pump) at all which thermostat is fitted.

Ciao, Marco

I don't remember which one was fitted, I does not rule for what I wanted to show.

I will modify my statement on Youtube.

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15 hours ago, Hamish said:

Contemplating this type of thing to heat the oil in competition mornings and they act as a cooler. As they balance out the water and oil temps

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274697331959

 

Where do you think you will mount it Hamish.?

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Hamish, Am I right in thinking that is a water in/out and oil in/out item?

periodically over the years I have checked my oil cooler and lines and they do start out cold and then, dependant on ambient temps (and driving attitude!) they do get hot so all works well.

I remember it was about 20 years ago I bought the thermostat oil cooler, came from Flexilite but only seems to be an American company on the net now? anyhoo, Pete Cox says he's never seen one like it before so maybe it is an import etc 

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1 hour ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Where do you think you will mount it Hamish.?

thinking of NS under bonnet close to oil filter where there are oil cooler outlet and return and close  to  return from in car heater.

 

1 hour ago, Nigel C said:

Hamish, Am I right in thinking that is a water in/out and oil in/out item?

periodically over the years I have checked my oil cooler and lines and they do start out cold and then, dependant on ambient temps (and driving attitude!) they do get hot so all works well.

I remember it was about 20 years ago I bought the thermostat oil cooler, came from Flexilite but only seems to be an American company on the net now? anyhoo, Pete Cox says he's never seen one like it before so maybe it is an import etc 

yes its a basic heat exchanger with a water and a separate oil in/out.

hoping ( its only rough idea phase that may not go anywhere)that the water will heat the oil when starting and when running balance out the water /oil temps between 185 and 207f where my water temps seem to be - the upper end where the elec fan on the rad kick in)

 

if this works i can ditch the air oil cooler from in front of radiator.

if is doesn't i can add an oil thermostat and not bother with the oil warming function.

 

H

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3 hours ago, Nigel C said:

Hamish, Am I right in thinking that is a water in/out and oil in/out item?

periodically over the years I have checked my oil cooler and lines and they do start out cold and then, dependant on ambient temps (and driving attitude!) they do get hot so all works well.

I remember it was about 20 years ago I bought the thermostat oil cooler, came from Flexilite but only seems to be an American company on the net now? anyhoo, Pete Cox says he's never seen one like it before so maybe it is an import etc 

This sort of thing?

https://www.flexolite.co.uk/products/tsp1-thermostatic_oil_cooler_take_off_plate_-with_m22_x_1-5_female_threads-tsp1

ED179AE3-0288-4F70-8CC8-454F3D5BF432.jpeg

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Posted (edited)

or there is this type if you already have the oil cooler sandwich plate

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/mocal-oil-thermostat-with-5-8-inch-push-on-tails-m-ot-10po

image.png.ca80771860ebdece18f61bc800a322b3.png

Edited by Hamish
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