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I wonder if the classic car community, led by the FBHVC, could put a case together to object to this new rule as it can be shown to reduce road safety. LEDs that are fully compliant to the beam quality requirements should be OK, those cheap and nasties that are not should be an MOT failure. Was this just laziness on the part of the DVSA?

Mick

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Just to add another point on construction and use regs,  There was an odd ball case some years ago about stating that if you don't travel at night then there is no legal obligation to have lights on a car.  How this would work these days is open to question but i know from my own experience with the TR3 it cannot fail the mot over its wipers/washers simply because it doesn't have them.  However, if I had fitted the spindles then they would have to work even if no blades were fitted. 

Hoges. 

PS .  with regard to E marks I don't think they can make rules retrospective to cars tat were built before e marking came in  - or can they? 

Edited by Paul Hogan
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Our cars are exempt from needing E marked bulbs. (Vehicle lighting regs)   

I think we should leave it that there are those who value the increased safety of using better, but non standard lighting (i.e LED mainly), & are happy that sense will prevail in the event of a dispute, and there are those who dare not risk not complying with outdated rules, but are happy to drive with grossly inferior lighting compared to modern cars.

Bob.

 

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9 minutes ago, Lebro said:

Our cars are exempt from needing E marked bulbs. (Vehicle lighting regs)   

I think we should leave it that there are those who value the increased safety of using better, but non standard lighting (i.e LED mainly), & are happy that sense will prevail in the event of a dispute, and there are those who dare not risk not complying with outdated rules, but are happy to drive with grossly inferior lighting compared to modern cars.

Bob.

 

+1

 

My Chinese LED's have passed three MOT's and I have checked the beam patern like for like with my H4 filaments.

I am happy they are good for me and other road users.

I shall speak to my insurers this coming week. I am confident in their answer. 

I shall keep using them

 

Roger

Edited by RogerH
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1 hour ago, trchris said:

Hi Nigel

its the front headlights that would be illegal and I for one would not like to put the issue of insured or not insured to the test

Chris

No, there are two separate issues that have been discussed, that affect both headlights and other lighting.

The first is the issue of non-compliant headlamp units (no longer allowed to convert existing headlamp units to use either LEDs or HIDs). This will now be an MOT fail.

The second is the issue of aftermarket LEDs in (potentially) any external lighting.  The issue here is that it's not practicable to approval-mark each combination of LED and lighting unit so it's not possible to be compliant, and in the case of stop lights because a 15 watt LED would be blinding!

For anyone interested, here is a good summary of the complexities and ambiguities: http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/ledlights.htm

Personally, I am confident that this is an area where common sense will prevail until the regs are eventually brought up to date.

Nigel

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Hi Folks,

I think any hysteria regarding LED's should be put aside and that our club, for which we pay a considerable yearly sub, get in touch with the FBHVC and find out exactly and precisely what the DVLA are up to.

That paper clipping from CCW is not the sort of investogative journalism that benefits anybody. (where is Kevin Turvey when you need him)

The comment from the TRR is meaningless in so far if anybody fits rubbish to their car then the MOT will find it. A pointless comment. And doesn't help our cause at all.

Somebody needs to speak to the author of the supposed regulation.  A great many questions to ask.

 

Roger

 

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Hi all

I was certainly not intending crossing swords with anyone it is my interpretation rightly or wrongly regarding LED bulbs perhaps the TRR insurance services could give some guidance to implications with insurance and fitting LEDs ??

Chris  

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They have in the past.    They have stated that fitting of LED lamps would not invalidate your insurance.  This has come up several times before.

Yes it would be worth checking their position regarding the Janurary 11th new MOT guidance rule on headlamps.

Bob.

Edited by Lebro
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1 hour ago, North London Mike said:

ell, its March 14th, has anybody actually had either a LED MOT pass or fail so far ?

Yes, Allan Westbury's TR7 failed its MOT on a number of things including LED headlamps. He has replaced them with halogen for the re-test.

Mick

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https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/updates

4. Lamps, reflectors and electrical equipment

4.1.4 Headlamps - Compliance with requirements - Changed sentence from 'Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.' to 'Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.'

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment#section-4-1-1

4.1.4. Compliance with requirements

You must inspect all ‘mandatory’ headlamps fitted.

Mandatory headlamps consist of a matched pair of main beam headlamps and a matched pair of dipped-beam headlamps. These can be separate or a single pair of headlamps.

Lamps are matched if they:

emit light of substantially the same colour and intensity

are the same size and shape that they are symmetrical to each other

Vehicles first used before 1 January 1931 do not need headlamps.

Buses first used before 1 October 1969 only need one headlamp. If 2 are fitted, neither the main beam or dipped beams need to form matched pair.

The colour of the light headlamps emit must be one of the following:

white

predominantly white with blue tinge

yellow

In a four-headlamp system the outer headlamps do not need to emit the same colour light as the inner pair.

The precise position of lamps is not part of the inspection, but you should check visually that they are at about the same height and the same distance from each side of the vehicle.

Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.

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4 hours ago, zanzibar said:

Your car will fail the MOT if any LED's are fitted Classic Car Weekly report about new MOT rules.

Think you maybe be scaremongering here. If you refer to headlamps yes probably will be a fail, but my car passed MOT last year with LED brake lights/rear marker/front side lights. 

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6 hours ago, zanzibar said:

Your car will fail the MOT if any LED's are fitted Classic Car Weekly report about new MOT rules.

There's another thread in the general technical area which debates all this at length. 

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5 hours ago, c.hydes said:

Think you maybe be scaremongering here. If you refer to headlamps yes probably will be a fail, but my car passed MOT last year with LED brake lights/rear marker/front side lights. 

Hi All

Trouble is if you follow Bills link to the bit he quotes it seems to be a regulation update as of JAN 21.

I too checked those regs a while ago when i was thinking about changing my old sealed beams and saw the reg only mentioned HID bulbs but not LEDs so I had the option back then but it seems not now.

So if we are interpreting the update correctly the new regs def seem to indicate that LEDs as well as HIDs should be an MOT failure. I suppose those who have LED's and have an MOT soon will see what happens and hopefully report back.  Whether you would ever get pulled and prosecuted is another matter but which i think the rge is a bit short sighted as a good quality LED should be fine as a replacement for a cheapo Halogen bulb, but maybe there is a sensible reason behind it we are not aware of.

Cheers   Keith

 

 

 

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My LED front and rear position lamps have just successfully completed their third MoT.  The photo below shows original fit filament lamp on the NS and a red LED side light on the OS.  Just one point here about the photo: both lamps look more orange in the photo than they are in reality.  I didn't take a similar photo at the front but that would have shown a really nice bright LED light but of a colour that is a little too white in my opinion  for an old car, but just perfect to use, in most conditions, as a DLR.  The Cadwell Park photo shows the original filament lamps barely adequate for anything except as 'parking lights'.  Remember the clip-on lamps that you could buy back in the 60s to fit onto side windows?

My Osram Nightbreaker headlights are in their 6th year and have served just fine.  Having said that, I am  looking forward to a meaningful and useful conclusion to this saga.

If I needed more light at the front, I'd go for a pair of auxiliary lamps.  Recommendations for these would be appreciated.

Incidentally, the useless boot lamp that you can see has been replaced by an LED strip lamp that is brilliant in both senses of the word, in fact a little too bright so I had to stick some tape on it so that I wasn't blinded by the light.  A cheap and simple mod but never regretted.

Old and new rear lightsreduced file size.jpg

Edited by Alfrom
additional info inserted
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The plot thickens. Headlamps LEDs fail and side lights are 'maybe' OK . . . . . 

Ref insurance, just renewed with TRR scheme, they are very happy to cover LED's including headlamps, no cost, just noted on file

So, do we drive in the dark or skip MOT's (which most of us can) and pay for an hours labour at a specialist and get a 'safety check' documented ??

I might leave LNK on H4's as I have the spots as well. However, Moby (Mk2 2500 sal) may have to go another way as she is fully LED's and used for night rallies !!

:huh:

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My TR7 did fail on a couple of issues including the LEDs in the headlights but regarding the headlights the wording used was:

"Existing halogen headlamps should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge(HID) or light emitting diode(LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp".

I have now gone back to halogen lamps for the re-test today which passed other than emissions where I am still having a problem.

I have spoken to TR Insurance this morning who have confirmed from the underwriter as below:

“We are happy to confirm that we have no issues with LED replacement bulbs and this will not affect the insurance in any way, provided that the bulbs fitted are of the equivalent or higher rating (watts to lumens) than the standard fitment bulbs.”

Pete has added  "This does not indicate that they are legal but does mean that your insurance will not be invalidated by fitting them.

Please note this excludes the fitment of angel eye style headlamps.”

 

Make of that as you will,

Cheers,

Allan

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