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TR6 With BMW Engine


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Hi

Is there anyone out there who has put a BMW engine into a TR6 and thus can shed some light upon this?

A Triumph six cylinder can be as sweet as a BMW six. What can be the point to fit a modern six cylinder in the Triumph chassis. I would try to improve the chassis if I couldn't leave the car as it is.

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Greetings,

 

I am in the final wrap up stages of installing a 1995 BMW M3 S50 Engine and Trans in my TR6. Sorry to those that are offended but I have been restoring these Brits for years and decided it was time to build up a great street performer. Originally I had investigated the typical V8 conversions but was not impressed by the engine bay modifications required as well as the relocation of the steering shaft/rack. No matter how you engineer the fit of a V8, you're going to have to modify the steering shaft at the very least and incorporate a couple of extra joints. Most also have to move the steering rack slightly forward as well or cut into the firewall. Neither of these options was acceptable to me.

 

So, after several beers with a friend of mine who owns an independent BMW/Volvo repair shop, the old tape measure showed that the M3 engine would fit without any of these mods. Here what I had to do. First, accept the fact that you will have to do some wiring to accommodate the computer system. I chose the S50 M3 engine specifically because in the US, this was the only year that was produced with the OBDI software. The later models have a host of electronic and theft systems that would be a mother to deal with.

 

Here are the mods I had to do to accommodate. Believe it or not, the engine and trans slipped right in. The only sheetmetal work I had to do was concave left the inner fender well to match the right side to clearance for the intake manifold. It looks factory. I made some very simple engine mounts out of square bar that facilitated pancake style mounts typically used in the hot rod industry. The left bracket on the engine worked perfectly but I did fabricate a bracket for the right side of the engine. The transmission mount was a simple piece of angle iron welded in the proper location between the frame members bent to accommodate the BMW mounts. The steering shaft fit perfectly right down the side of the engine and cleared the intake manifold no problems. I removed the a/c and power steering pumps and had to play around with several different pulleys to get them to clear. I think they ended up being Volvo for the water pump and early 3-series for the crank. I used an alternator off a Suzuki Samurai, which was the smallest I could find, and it still puts out 55 amps. This alternator does require an idiot light to excite. The radiator I chose was a BMW e36 as well. I installed some simple rubber buffers on the lower frame skid plate to locate the bottom and fabricated a new radiator duct out of aluminum that located and fastened the top. Oh, and I did fabricate a new front cross member between the spring towers up front. The factory one might have worked but the clearance was just too tight with the pulleys I chose. The lower frame cross member was chopped into about 1/2 of its thickness but severely beefed up. This was to clear the oil pan.

 

The cool thing about this install is that if you didn't know any better, you'd think BMW designed this engine for the TR6. It is an absolutely beautiful fit. I did convert the rear diff to an Infiniti Q45 LSD / 3:54 which will work great with the transmission. Also had a company ( www.cvaxles.com Kevin) make up some rear axle shafts with CV Joints that will better handle the power. The drive shaft was a combo of the BMW with the Infiniti/Nissan rear flange. An actual drive shaft company did this.

 

Currently, the chassis is awaiting the tub, which is being finished up at the body shop as we speak. It fits perfectly and all is hooked up and plumbed. You will need to fit an electric fuel pump and I would also suggest strengthening the frame. I have added a lot of steel to the frame, reinforced all the week areas and will install a roll cage to further stiffen it up.

 

Hope this helps. At least on idiot over here in the US is doing what you are asking about.

 

Dave

Edited by milemarker60
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:D I suppose if BMW who now own the Triumph name were to build a new TR then it would have a BMW engine so you have in effect beat the factory to it and its your car so you can do what you like with it. Post some photos when you have it on the road, im sure it will stir up the purists. At least its another TR on the road.Hope you have some fun with it.

Regards Stuart.

Greetings,

 

I am in the final wrap up stages of installing a 1995 BMW M3 S50 Engine and Trans in my TR6. Sorry to those that are offended but I have been restoring these Brits for years and decided it was time to build up a great street performer. Originally I had investigated the typical V8 conversions but was not impressed by the engine bay modifications required as well as the relocation of the steering shaft/rack. No matter how you engineer the fit of a V8, you're going to have to modify the steering shaft at the very least and incorporate a couple of extra joints. Most also have to move the steering rack slightly forward as well or cut into the firewall. Neither of these options was acceptable to me.

 

So, after several beers with a friend of mine who owns an independent BMW/Volvo repair shop, the old tape measure showed that the M3 engine would fit without any of these mods. Here what I had to do. First, accept the fact that you will have to do some wiring to accommodate the computer system. I chose the S50 M3 engine specifically because in the US, this was the only year that was produced with the OBDI software. The later models have a host of electronic and theft systems that would be a mother to deal with.

 

Here are the mods I had to do to accommodate. Believe it or not, the engine and trans slipped right in. The only sheetmetal work I had to do was concave left the inner fender well to match the right side to clearance for the intake manifold. It looks factory. I made some very simple engine mounts out of square bar that facilitated pancake style mounts typically used in the hot rod industry. The left bracket on the engine worked perfectly but I did fabricate a bracket for the right side of the engine. The transmission mount was a simple piece of angle iron welded in the proper location between the frame members bent to accommodate the BMW mounts. The steering shaft fit perfectly right down the side of the engine and cleared the intake manifold no problems. I removed the a/c and power steering pumps and had to play around with several different pulleys to get them to clear. I think they ended up being Volvo for the water pump and early 3-series for the crank. I used an alternator off a Suzuki Samurai, which was the smallest I could find, and it still puts out 55 amps. This alternator does require an idiot light to excite. The radiator I chose was a BMW e36 as well. I installed some simple rubber buffers on the lower frame skid plate to locate the bottom and fabricated a new radiator duct out of aluminum that located and fastened the top. Oh, and I did fabricate a new front cross member between the spring towers up front. The factory one might have worked but the clearance was just too tight with the pulleys I chose. The lower frame cross member was chopped into about 1/2 of its thickness but severely beefed up. This was to clear the oil pan.

 

The cool thing about this install is that if you didn't know any better, you'd think BMW designed this engine for the TR6. It is an absolutely beautiful fit. I did convert the rear diff to an Infiniti Q45 LSD / 3:54 which will work great with the transmission. Also had a company ( www.cvaxles.com Kevin) make up some rear axle shafts with CV Joints that will better handle the power. The drive shaft was a combo of the BMW with the Infiniti/Nissan rear flange. An actual drive shaft company did this.

 

Currently, the chassis is awaiting the tub, which is being finished up at the body shop as we speak. It fits perfectly and all is hooked up and plumbed. You will need to fit an electric fuel pump and I would also suggest strengthening the frame. I have added a lot of steel to the frame, reinforced all the week areas and will install a roll cage to further stiffen it up.

 

Hope this helps. At least on idiot over here in the US is doing what you are asking about.

 

Dave

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I am in the final wrap up stages of installing a 1995 BMW M3 S50 Engine and Trans in my TR6.

Here what I had to do. First, accept the fact that you will have to do some wiring to accommodate the computer system. I chose the S50 M3 engine specifically because in the US, this was the only year that was produced with the OBDI software. The later models have a host of electronic and theft systems that would be a mother to deal with.

 

Have been discussing this exact subject recently.

We did discuss discarding all the electronics and computer stuff and putting on carbs - say 3 x twinchoke webers?

Did you look at this option?

In the UK we have a surfeit of 2.8 straight 6 Beemer engines that we calculate could produce about 200 - 230BHP without tweeking!

That power with the weight saving could make for a very hot potato!

I know what you mean about the V8 option after coming across a 5.7 litre TR6 beast at Chatham. Too much cutting and carving for my liking. The engine bay on a 6 is made for a straight 6 lump and the BMW option would seem to be ideal.

 

Unc :blink:

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Have been discussing this exact subject recently.

We did discuss discarding all the electronics and computer stuff and putting on carbs - say 3 x twinchoke webers?

 

Never really thought about carbs due to simplicity of OBDI Software. Did think about the Euro Motor but just too difficult to acquire. Stock HP is 240 and I have added new cams, larger injectors, larger MAF and air box, had the head mildly ported and installed an aluminum flywheel. Don't know yet what it will net to the ground but I'm getting excited.

 

Hopefully a pic is attached below.

 

Dave

 

Roller-1-Mitch.jpg

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Never really thought about carbs due to simplicity of OBDI Software. Hopefully a pic is attached below.

 

Dave

Photo did not appear?

Are the OBDI Software and injector system with presumably pressurised fuel system that simple?

Being a bit of a NUBE when it comes to computers running cars it seemed that a electric fuel pump and a throttle cable would make life a lot easier especially with space under the bonnet.

 

Unc B)

Edited by unclepete
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Dave

Photo did not appear?

Are the OBDI Software and injector system with presumably pressurised fuel system that simple?

Being a bit of a NUBE when it comes to copmputers running cars it seemed that a electric fuel pump and a throttle cable would make life a lot easier especially with space under the bonnet.

 

Unc B)

 

I too was a little intimidated as this was the first computer-controlled engine I have really dealt with. Believe it or not, the BMW harness plug has only four wires to be connected. One for power, one for the fuel pump, one for ground and one off the alternator. The simple OBDI computer controls all engine parameters and has only one Oxygen sensor. Still need the throttle cable but everything is extremely compact and fits without issue under hood. I also had Jim Conforti make a chip for the brain to boost the engines capabilities with my set-up. No Cats and a Free-Flow exhaust also add to its potential.

 

On top of all that, overhauling this engine compared to our familiar TR's was ridiculously simple. Every part and component was engineered to the most insane tolerances and required no finessing to rebuild.

 

 

Here is a link to my photobucket site. Pics can be seen there in several different albums. Just click on the album names.

 

Dave.

 

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/milemarker60/

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In the UK we have a surfeit of 2.8 straight 6 Beemer engines that we calculate could produce about 200 - 230BHP without tweeking!

 

I guess you're talking about the 2.8 litre M52 alloy block engine (1995-99) as found in the 328 & 528 models. This produces 193bhp & 206lb/ft in standard trim & was "strangled" to meet German legislation. By using the inlet manifold from the earlier 2.5 & a rechip you're looking at 220 - 230bhp. Also available was the 323/523 version which was actually 2.5 litre with 170bhp.

 

The fly in the ointment was the Nikasil problem due to high sulphur content in UK petrol. This led to the Nikasil bore coating breaking down & the engine wearing out the bores in less than 50k miles. BMW replaced engines left right & centre before identifying the cause. Later blocks were sleeved before the change to an Alusil coating.

 

This means the engine in a scrapyard may be a worn out wreck or a mint replacement from a crashed car.

 

The earlier 2.5 M50 iron block engine produces the same bhp but slightly less torque & looks virtually identical. These ran from 1991-95 & had no major faults unless they had been neglected. The later M3 engines were closely based on these units.

 

Both the M50 & M52 are chain driven twin cam 24 valve units & were based on the earlier belt driven single cam M20 2.5 litre. These engines gave 170bhp but are easily tunable to 190-200bhp. You'll find these in the E30 3-series (1982-91). These are known as the "small sixes" as opposed to the M30 "Big Six" available in 2.5, 2.8, 3.0, 3.2 & 3.5 litres (as found in a 635, 535 or 735). These produced up to 220bhp & are good for 250k+ miles if looked after.

 

Any of M20/M50 engines would go well in a TR6 & of course bring the benefits of a virtually unbreakable 5 speed transmission too. The big six M30 is perhaps a little large & heavy for the TR6 but would give it some go! :D

 

Personally I'd go for the earlier M20 or M50 units as they are very cheap, last 150-200k miles before needing major attention & are in plentiful supply.

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A Triumph six cylinder can be as sweet as a BMW six. What can be the point to fit a modern six cylinder in the Triumph chassis.
Did think about the Euro Motor but just too difficult to acquire. Hopefully a pic is attached below.

Dave

Dave

Streuth! that does look like a beast. Nice looking job, keep up with the photos and lets see what she's like when complete. Euro BMW 6 pots are plentiful over here. The 5 and 7 series are basically worth diddly squat after a few years whilst still mechanically very good.

 

Marvul

Lighter, more power without stressing the engine, availability of spares and about half the price of a TR 6 pot engine and gearbox rebuild. I'm not talking about ditching a perfectly good engine and gearbox more finding a 6 with a blown engine but good chassis and body.

 

Unc

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:)

Personally I'd go for the earlier M20 or M50 units as they are very cheap, last 150-200k miles before needing major attention & are in plentiful supply.

 

Andy

Obviously a BMW expert - lots of good advice and you've got my head reeling.

The TR6 engine is a monumentally heavy lump of iron so an alloy BMW engine would not be a problem weight wise.

I like the idea of a bullet proof manual gearbox!

So it comes down to a fairly compact 2.8 - 3.5 unit (is there any difference in size?) and you mention the M20 and M50 units what models did they fit them in. Are the M30 that heavy?

Reason being I have a contact who owns a car recovery business some of which go for crushing!

 

Unc

Edited by unclepete
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Personally I'd go for the earlier M20 or M50 units as they are very cheap, last 150-200k miles before needing major attention & are in plentiful supply.

 

 

A word of warning concerning the M20 2.5litre. They were originally fitted with hex headed head bolts which had a habit of shearing off and punching a hole in the casting, they should all have been changed to torx headed bolts, which are ok, by now but it is always worth checking. Easily done, just remove the oil filler cap and have a look.

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Well I am a bit of a BMW fan :D

 

Ok, bit of history to put things in context.

 

You'll know the BMW 2002. That had the M10 4 cylinder engine (alloy head, iron block). Unbreakable & good for up to 1400bhp in F1 guise (yes it used the same production block!). Capacities ranged from 1500 to 2000cc.

 

By adding 2 more cylinders BMW created the M30 in 1968. Originally in 2.5 litre (150bhp) with carbs it was a bit of a lump. Increasing the capacity to 2.8 & later 3.0 litres improved things. These were found in the CS coupes & the saloons. Power was around 180bhp depending on the model. Fuel injection & another capacity hike to 3.2 litres gave 200bhp.

 

They are a heavy motor but it depends on what you're comparing them to. They fit into the '82-'91 3-series very easily so they can't be that much heavier then the small six. I can try & find engine weights if you need them.

 

Engines you may find yourself looking at will be from the 5, 6 & 7-series up to 1992. After that they went to V8's.

 

Biggest is best so the 3.5 litre is the one to go for, preferably post '82 as there were some internal changes to improve cooling & rationalise production. Power was 218bhp before 1987 & 220bhp (6 & 7-series) or 211bhp (5-series) after. A cam swap & rechip will give around 240bhp & still be very tractable, espectially in a TR.

 

Other developments. A twin cam 24 valve head was used in the M1 mid engined car. Based on the racing engines of the CSL's that were dominating in the early '70's it found it's way into the M635 in 1984. 286bhp ensured very good performance! BMW sawed off the last two chambers (really!) & put it on an enlarged (2.3 litre) M10 block giving the first M3. The rest is history!

 

Because the M30 is such a relatively heavy lump BMW designed a new lighter six, originally called the M60 for the first 3-series in 1975. Available in 2.0 & 2.3 litre form it was renamed M20 with some internal revisions. Capacities were 2.0 litre (129bhp) & 2.5 litre (170bhp), both with Motronic injection.

 

The M60's are really too old to consider & the 2.0 litre, whilst very smooth, is a bit gutless so go for the 2.5 litre with Bosch Motronic injection available '85 on. Again, a chip & cam work wonders & will give over 200bhp.

 

The next evolution was the M50 24 valve engine with chain driven cams & hydraulic valve adjustment. The 2.0 litre gave 150bhp & is a bit gutless in a heavy 5-series & not much better in a 3-series. Everyone wants the 192bhp 2.5 litre so the 2.0 litre is as cheap as chips & should be ok in a TR though it's not really moving the game on in terms of power. Having said that, was the 150bhp TR in DIN or SAE? I'm sure the 125bhp was DIN.

 

Electronics were starting to get a bit complicated now with immobilisers etc so for the later engines you need the key transponder too. Not impossible to adapt, just harder.

 

Because the M20 & M50/M52 shared so much DNA you can fit an M52 2.8 crank & rods into an M20 2.5 )with a little maching of the crank nose) for a 300cc capacity increase. With a suitable exhaust manifold, cam & chip you've got 230bhp+ in an M20.

 

The final derivative was the S50 M3 engine. Initially 3.0 litres with 286bhp & single Vanos cam timing (like the '92 on M50) these had a 5 speed box & were all but unbreakable. The next evolution, aptly called the Evo, was 3.2 litres & 321bhp with twin Vanos & a 6 speed box. Both the twin Vanos & 6 speed box have proved more fragile the the earlier iteration. In the US their M3 engine had a modified M50 head & 256bhp due to emissions regulations.

 

In summary, the M30 are bullet proof if given regular oil & coolant changes.

 

The M20's are plentyful & cheap - £250ish. Reliability is the same as the M30's though 2.5's can get thrashed a bit.

 

M50's are great but will cost more.

 

S50's are the business but a 3.0 will cost £1500 or so.

 

If your friend has any E32 735's (1986-92) sitting in his yard I'd love the brake calipers & mounting brackets if they're cheap enough!

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Dave, are they BBS wheels?

 

What size are they?

 

The wheels are BMW "Style 5" multi-piece BBS that came optionally on the 1998-2001 E39 5-series Sports. I had a company in CA take them apart, "fill and re-drill" the centers for the TR6 bolt circle, polish the rims and powder coat the centers. The TR6 emblems fit right inside the recess of the center caps.

 

They are 17x8 w/ 20mm offset which nets a backspace of 5.3". I had the shop make up a set of spacers front and rear thinking I was still going to need to maintain the 4" backspace but due to their larger diameter, I have no problems with the front clearances. I don't need them in the rear eaither due to the extra 5/8" disc brake bracket I've installed. So all I did was have a set of hubcentric rings made up to step the 74.1mm center-bores of the wheels down to the TR6 hub-snout.

 

I know many of the readers of this forum find my conversion a little on the sacrilege side of life so don't hit me too hard with putting these wheels on to boot.

 

I chose the Falken RT-615 (225/45/17)after much research as I did not want a true "R" compound tire, rather one suitable for an occassional autocross but mainly street use. I'm building this thing to terrorize my neighbors, not for racing.

 

Dave

 

Roller-RearDiscs-1.jpg

 

Roller-Engine-1t.jpg

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I thought they looked like Style 5's but I couldn't work out how you got them to fit! They're a favourite for 6-series owners.

 

As for modding a TR6, why not? They aren't exactly an endangered species. An original car is fine for concours events but to use in the modern world a few upgrades are best if not essential. Who'd disagree with using a Bosch fuel pump or an electric fan or electronic ignition? A modern engine is a logical step forward. TR6's weren't exactly cutting edge 37 years ago so if you can make it more usable whilst retaining the essential character of the car, good on you.

 

Looking forward to seeing yours finished & on the road!

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Guest harry dent

Dave ,

I love it!.I see you have fitted rear calipers and disc,s.How did you fit these and I see they are Wilwood calipers.The wheels look so good.I might have to build a TR6 to do just what you are doing.Could not do this to my TR5 although I have deviated from standard on my baby.Please keep us posted as I am most interested in the outcome and rolling road figures.

Regards Harry.

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  • 5 months later...

I know this thread hasn't been updated for quite some time now, but does anyone know something about Dave's TR6. I saw that he was making nice progress, but it's been really quiet here for the last couple of months. Since I'm no purist I loved his idea.

 

Who can give us an update?

 

Bye!

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  • 11 years later...

Someone tell me about a M52 B35 TU engine.  I have one in my garage with a manual 5 speed box on it.  What can I get out of that BHP size and is it untunable?  I have heard that its the wrong one to tune other say its a good option. Someone tell me what I can do to it and How easy and costly is it to get it to 200+BHP.  I may put it in a six.  Thanks 

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Those who have been on the forum for some time will remember the maroon 6 with an M3 engine pictured in an aircraft hanger [ USA ]

did a search but couldn't find details

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4 hours ago, roy53 said:

Those who have been on the forum for some time will remember the maroon 6 with an M3 engine pictured in an aircraft hanger [ USA ]

did a search but couldn't find details

There was also one at a Malvern International about 8 yr ago.

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