Independent Shenanigans

[Misfit]

2 hours ago, Misfit said:

Deleted repeated

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Misfit

[Crawfie]

30 minutes ago, Bleednipple said:

Just noticed this thread, and I see that although I assume plenty of TRR members are Scots none of them appear motivated to post here, this seems like just an echo chamber of English people saying what they think about the leader the Scots decided to elect (she's the head of the Scottish National Party, the clue's presumably in the name...). Of course we know opinions in Scotland vary but right now the polls indicate a majority minded to vote Yes in any referendum.

It will be for the Scots to decide on whether they want to be independent or not and I suspect they will make their decisions as much about their tastes in constitutional sovereignty as about the economics. As did a lot of people who voted Leave in the Brexit referendum despite some assumptions by those opposing it that money would be all people cared about.

I saw a suggestion above that any referendum should be UK-wide. I can see no valid argument for that in a referendum about secession from a political union albeit a 300 year old one. Under the principles of self determination and government by consent it would have to be a decision for the Scots themselves. (Ironically, I didn't hear many Brexit supporters saying all EU citizens should get a vote in the 2016 referendum).

Nigel

I think if the European  countries could vote on whether to stay/ leave the EU , the results would be quite surprising . 
I’m not to sure , but I think Scottish MPs were allowed to vote on matters that affected England , but English MPs could not vote on Scottish issues. Not very democratic .

I hope Scotland remains in the Union .....otherwise where going to need a few bricklayers  to rebuild Hadrian’s Wall

Ive already told my father in law (Glasgow born) that I’ll have deported as an illegal alien if independence happens .

[RogerH]

1 hour ago, Bleednipple said:

Just noticed this thread, and I see that although I assume plenty of TRR members are Scots none of them appear motivated to post here, this seems like just an echo chamber of English people saying what they think about the leader the Scots decided to elect (she's the head of the Scottish National Party, the clue's presumably in the name...). Of course we know opinions in Scotland vary but right now the polls indicate a majority minded to vote Yes in any referendum.

It will be for the Scots to decide on whether they want to be independent or not and I suspect they will make their decisions as much about their tastes in constitutional sovereignty as about the economics. As did a lot of people who voted Leave in the Brexit referendum despite some assumptions by those opposing it that money would be all people cared about.

I saw a suggestion above that any referendum should be UK-wide. I can see no valid argument for that in a referendum about secession from a political union albeit a 300 year old one. Under the principles of self determination and government by consent it would have to be a decision for the Scots themselves. (Ironically, I didn't hear many Brexit supporters saying all EU citizens should get a vote in the 2016 referendum).

Nigel

Hi Nigel,

when the UK voted to leave the EU the decision was not going to have a  massive effect on the EU itself. The EU would still be there.

Indeed it would have an effect on UK citizens living over seas in the EU.

However should Scotland chose to go it alone then that would have a very serious effect on what is left. For it will no longer be the United Kingdom.

So having such a great power over the existence of what is then I feel it should be an open vote for ALL UK citizens. 

 

Roger

[john.r.davies]

"Most successful union"?   You have heard of the principalities of old Germany, the Cantons of Switzerland, or that behemoth, the United States of America?  

[JohnG]

11 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

Sadly opinions in this thread from London, Chelmsford, Frome, West Sussex, Wakefield and Cheshire do not matter a scrap.    What will matter are the opinions of Scots, and they are overwhelmingly in favour of the SNP, and their vote in the previous referendum has now reversed to be in favour of independance. 

  See: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2021/01/scottish-independence-poll-tracker-will-scotland-vote-leave-uk

To congratulate workers in vaccine production and delivery in Scotland might be considered "essential" travel for a Prime Minister, but there can be no doubt that dePiffle Johnson's choice to do so in highly controlled situations, with carefully selected and limited people, was to protect him from what would otherwise have been an opportunity for Scots to demonstrate their contempt.   Just to do so, and in such circumstnces, plays into the hands of the SNP, and will increase their majority.

Daughter was an Honourary Scot, a Scottish International by residence, and now by marriage.      If it does happen, I might look for Scots citizenship through her, if an association down the generations works as well as for the thousands who have suddenly found Irish, and other EU ancestors.

John

 

Apologies for the delay in replying, I've only just got back to this thread, what I would say in reply is;

Agreed, our opinions here, are irrelevant, but, luckily, out in the wider world, each one counts, minutely, but, even so, it counts

I would suggest that the Scots not so much are overwhelmingly in favour of the SNP, as underwhelmingly represented by the alternatives.

 

Why is Mr Johnsons trip to West Lothian derided and ridiculed, but, a trip to Oxford or Wrexham, acceptable?

Is the careful selection of people and stage management involved really an issue?

Is Mr Johnson the only politician to do it?

The inference, although not written or suggested, is that Mrs Sturgeon is not guilty of the same and that the management of Mr Johnsons trip, was special, designed to protect him from raging Scots.

Again, I would suggest the Mrs Sturgeon is guilty of the same, meaning she is not pressed on her many fiscal failings.

 

As for taking Scottish citizenship, well there is at least one precedence that I know of;

I am on another, none vehicle related forum.

Also on the forum is a guy, from Lancashire, who has Polish paternal grandparents.

He is an ardent European and so, within 6 months of the Brexit referendum result, applied for and received German citizenship and has been resident in Karrst for over 18 months.

He is happier and this comes through in his forum postings (he is also happy to say so at any given opportunity), so, I would say, if it will make you happier John, go for it, we each have one life and you should do what your heart tell you to do.

Sometimes heart over head is the right way to go.

 

I know that, all the above does not matter a scrap, but, I feel better for it. 

[Misfit]

Cantons of EUROPE, United States of AMERICAN, yes I have heard of them. and John you maybe right, perhaps they were/are more united. Maybe you see the achievements of Great Britain differently, perhaps what we brought to the World was all bad, As I say perhaps it’s the glasses, I see it differently, l believe the world is in the main a better place, and what we have learnt as a 300 year Union has helped.  Ask yourself this, would English speaking America be what it is today, would there be a Union of independent European nations, perhaps not, perhaps without Great Britain,NI and the common wealth of nations,  life, the world would be entirety different. Maybe I’m being silly. 

Whatever, I am of the opinion that we are better and greater being a United Kingdom 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Misfit

[john.r.davies]

Thank you John,for your good wishes.    I fear it's ancestors not descendants that can gain you another country,but we will see.

Misfit I was referring to the world beating success that was claimed for the UK, that other longer lasting ones equal and may surpass.   Certainly, the British Empire was the greatest ever seen, and is a reason why English is spoken so widely.  With, of course, it's extraordinary vocabulary that does surpass most others, by stealing form.every other that it contacts!   That language's adoption by the US could at one time have gone either way, with German the alternative!     So luck may have played a part too!

[Xmas6]

Having read this diatribe I find it curious that all the comments are from “ Little England”, as a native Scot who voted against separation last time, l find the personal comments about our First Minister from a nation who inflicted Margret Thatcher to Boris Johnston on us a little rich.

Scotland is a different nation with different values to England and since the devolution referendum, has had another Tory government and Brexit imposed  on us against the majority vote of our country. 
Since the Thatcher years “Scottish oil” has kept the UK afloat, I believe that the largest earning export from the UK is scotch whiskey, so a lot of the “financial evidence is skewed.

As a result of the comments in the press and other areas and the lack of democratic choice, I have made the decision to vote for the SNP and have altered my outlook on devolution as I would not wish to be tied to a country so opposite in it’s outlook as England.

Finally I find it disturbing to encounter such a biased political discussion on what is ostensibly  a car related forum.

Cheers Neil 

[glasgow4a]

Roger, myself and all my mates would like to see the back of Nicola Kranky. We voted to stay in the union and hope their is no Indiref 2. Do not believe that all Scots vote SNP that is definately not the case, cheers Ian.

[john.r.davies]

And that is why the SNP holds 48 of the 59 Scottish seats at Westminster.  

[RogerH]

2 hours ago, Xmas6 said:

Having read this diatribe I find it curious that all the comments are from “ Little England”, as a native Scot who voted against separation last time, l find the personal comments about our First Minister from a nation who inflicted Margret Thatcher to Boris Johnston on us a little rich.

Scotland is a different nation with different values to England and since the devolution referendum, has had another Tory government and Brexit imposed  on us against the majority vote of our country. 
Since the Thatcher years “Scottish oil” has kept the UK afloat, I believe that the largest earning export from the UK is scotch whiskey, so a lot of the “financial evidence is skewed.

As a result of the comments in the press and other areas and the lack of democratic choice, I have made the decision to vote for the SNP and have altered my outlook on devolution as I would not wish to be tied to a country so opposite in it’s outlook as England.

Finally I find it disturbing to encounter such a biased political discussion on what is ostensibly  a car related forum.

Cheers Neil 

Hi Neil,

I am sad that you think that a forum that is open for any chat other than the cars themselves can't talk about what is going on in every sphere.

I started this thread because I found the Scottish First Ministers actions typically rather naughty.

If The UK prime minister did not tour the four corners of the UK the 1st Minister would have been first in the queue to run the PM down for NOT being there.

Likewise through this C19 chaos she has been privy to the cabinet actions/discussions and has then held an impromptu news brief to be ahead of the game.

This is easy to do with such a small population. The PM has a 10X bigger problem. And for all the sneaky tricks has done no better in beating the C19.

Voting for whoever you wish is your choice but do not blame it on no democratic choice. You are using these limitations as an excuse.

The C19 episode has shown the EU in it's true colours - me, me, me is their attitude    and that is echo'd through the 1st minister.

Do I blame her for her actions - no. Sadly, all politicians act the same

Little england also has a voice, a vote and choice.

Roger

 

[Rod1883]

Neil,

The difference between this forum and many other "car related" and car only forums is that this is a Club forum too and so it is where Club members, and other like minded people, can discuss all sorts of things. It is our community, and that that is vital in these difficult time, where we all keep in touch and get the interaction we need. Not everyone agrees with everyone else and that is fine, it would be boring otherwise....

Edited February 8, 2021 by Rod1883
removal of duplication

[john.r.davies]

Hear, hear!    The Honourable Member for West Sussex has it just right!   

[stillp]

1 hour ago, Rod1883 said:

it would be boring otherwise....

Oh no it wouldn't!

Pete 

[ntc]

There is always plan b move to Scotland join the SNP and voice your opinion there or Sideways as you do, some have short memory’s you tried to get everybody on here to leave this forum John 

Edited February 8, 2021 by ntc

[Motorsport Mickey]

20 minutes ago, stillp said:

Oh no it wouldn't!

Pete 

Is this the 30 minute argument ?

Mick Richards

[RogerH]

That'll be £5

 

Roger

[john.r.davies]

Damn! And Double Damn!  My fiendish plan hasn't worked!   You're still here for a start, ntc!

 

[Misfit]

9 hours ago, Xmas6 said:

Having read this diatribe I find it curious that all the comments are from “ Little England”, as a native Scot who voted against separation last time, l find the personal comments about our First Minister from a nation who inflicted Margret Thatcher to Boris Johnston on us a little rich.

Scotland is a different nation with different values to England and since the devolution referendum, has had another Tory government and Brexit imposed  on us against the majority vote of our country. 
Since the Thatcher years “Scottish oil” has kept the UK afloat, I believe that the largest earning export from the UK is scotch whiskey, so a lot of the “financial evidence is skewed.

As a result of the comments in the press and other areas and the lack of democratic choice, I have made the decision to vote for the SNP and have altered my outlook on devolution as I would not wish to be tied to a country so opposite in it’s outlook as England.

Finally I find it disturbing to encounter such a biased political discussion on what is ostensibly  a car related forum.

Cheers Neil 

Neil.

I understand why you are disappointed with recent comments. me too. I think we are all a bit pissed, for me there is just negativity, no positivity, point scoring. I’m all for a bit of rivalry, but for years there are those telling us, how different England is from the rest of UK, rather than how alike we are. What we achieve together. 

How the Labour Party are for the working class, and the Conservative for the rich, the privileged,  what bollocks, it’s not  class, it attitude, belief or at least it was. Perhaps now its just power.

Just look at those you referred  too. A Grammar school educated Margaret Thatcher the daughter of a green grocer, and Eton Educated Boris Johnson, fairly diverse. What about Labour,  Privately Educated Mr Blair, Fettes (Scotland’s Eton equivalent) or Scottish High school educated Mr Brown, see a difference, no.

You say forced upon you,  why because they are born in little England, they were no more forced on you than Blair and Brown were forced onto all of UK voters. Selected by their Party and then the majority of the UK population  voted for them and their Manifesto. 

It seems there are those when told something often enough, believe it.  Scotland oil and Whisky kept UK afloat since Thatcher. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to consider they contributed to the UK economy rather than kept it afloat, thats how we function together. I’m sick of hearing words like they were slapped down, plots, outrageous, cynical, furious in the media. 

Opposition politicians referring to others as a liar, while making misleading or unsubstantiated comments even untruths themselves, just to get over a particular point, Well it’s clear recently politicians will only tell you what they want you to know. 

If Neil you and others  in Scotland honestly believe you are better off being Independent outside the UK and destroying the union, then go for it. But if leaving the UK you are relying on the EU as a outwardly looking Union I am not sure you will get what you are bargaining for, it’s won’t be  independence. 

I personally wish Scotland good luck. Perhaps though like EU Scotland won’t want to reciprocated that wish. Mind you if Scotland do break up the Union,  I’m fairly sure many in England won’t be so keen to offer the same warm wishes as me. 

I’m happy to offer an opinion here on this car club forum as long as others are doing so and as long as I am able too. I hope UK remain united and work together and thrive. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Misfit

[RogerH]

I'm not sure if I believe what I am doing but I agree with Derek - good post.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by RogerH

[stillp]

+1

[John Morrison]

+2

Really well reasoned,

I would wholly concur,

John.

[stillp]

Just to lighten up a bit: https://www.facebook.com/BBCScotland/videos/148389640297243/

[Dic Doretti]

+3, a fair summation.

Cheers Richard

[Peter Cobbold]

Salmon and Sturgeon....its all a bit fishy. If Indyref2 went their way we would of course BUILD the WALL, again. Hadrian lives OK ! And Westmonster will then be really, really nice to Wales.