Wiring woes - can you help?

[iani]

I've been quiet for a while as I have been trying to rewire my 1969 CP series TR6, in that time I have had two new looms from Autosparks but mistakes have been made on both sides:

Loom No1: Despite their website stating that they replaced ammeter wiring with voltmeter wiring, and despite my categorically asking for a voltmeter anyway, they saw fit to leave one brown ammeter wire in place. After discussions with Autosparks, I taped that wire up as I had no use for it. I installed the loom and, in my rush to test things, I didn't mount the switch plinth properly and this caused a short on one brown wire from the ignition switch, down to the starter motor and along the length of the aforementioned unneeded brown wire. I accepted that this was my fault and duly ordered another loom from Autosparks, subsequently having this loom repaired by a local auto electrician.

Loom No2: This time I not only told sales that I categorically didn't want the ammeter wiring and did want a voltmeter, I also told the Tech support guy I'd been dealing with on loom no1, they decided to not only give me voltmeter wiring but also provided all three Ammeter wires! They also decided to place a hazard relay block in a random location by the fusebox, they had provided two hazard wires next to the indicator relay wires on loom No1. After speaking with their technical support, loom no2 was duly returned to Autosparks where they removed the ammeter wiring and relocated the hazard wiring to the right location. On fitting this loom I really struggled to fit it, the wiring to the gauges was very generous but the starter motor run and the wiring in front of the driver was very tight, I really struggled to get everything connected up and, in another fit of utter stupidity, I managed to damage the insulation where it passed through the bulkhead due to an incorrectly fitted grommet (don't ever tell yourself you will sort it later!) obviously this resulted in another short. I pulled the loom from the car, compared it's length with the repaired Loom No1 and decided to fit No1 again.

Well, what a fun weekend I've had, I took the utmost care in installing the loom this time, I even heated it with a hot air gun to get is as compliant as possible, I would say that it does make a difference. The loom was duly run through the car, the starter motor cable reached without undue stress and I managed to connect everything up without too much fuss (once I junked the voltage stabiliser and put a solid state one in. I now have a number of issues I could use some help/advice with:

NB: I have had the car running for over an hour, I only achieved this by bypassing the fuel pump relay and the car keeps running even with the key removed, I have to pull the live feed to the fuel pump to kill it!

Problem 1: My car has a revotec fan fitted, that is fed via a 4 pin relay, the fan needs to be triggered by my ECU (Emerald K6), Autosparks provide the following wires, what relay pins should I connect these to? I do have an override switch

Brown - This is a permanent un-fused supply for the fan motor

Black - This is the earth for the fan motor and/or control module.

Pink – For  manual Over-ride

Green – Ignition On fused control wire for the fan control relay.

Problem 2: I have a fuel pump relay, again I need help with which pin to connect which wire to, I have tried various permutations but I don't get anywhere, this is another 4 pin relay, supplied as part of a kit from RTR so I'm confident this is the correct relay, it used to work fine!

wire 1 - ECU supplied switched Earth, this should control the relay

wire 2 - 12v input

wire 3 - 12v output (feeds fuel pump & injectors)

wire 4 - ? 

I have a fuel cutoff switch, not standard on a '69 so he wiring diagram doesn't help, I think it should take a 12v input from the relay then output to the fuel pump, is this correct?

Problem 3: Fuse No2, second one down has a Red supply side, Red/Green demand, I have no power to this fuse, it appears to be fed from the rheostat, that has been removed on my car, does this make sense?

Apologies for the long post, I have been struggling with these issues for months now and it's obviously difficult to get any assistance, this area really needs a mobile auto electrician! I'm sure it's apparent that I know next to nothing about electricity and I seriously wish I hadn't embarked on this, the TR loom itself is bad enough, my homemade EFI one just complicates matters.

Thanks

Ian

[RobH]

I am assuming the relays are modern types with standard numbering - not Lucas ones.  Pins 85/86 are the relay coil and 30/87 are a normally- open contact

Problem 1 - The description is not too clear I'm afraid,  so I am again making the assumption that the relay is to be in the supply to the motor and is to be operated by earths from the ECU and/or pink wires, then:

the green wire goes to pin 85

Brown goes to pin 30

Fan motor connects to pin 87

both the pink wire and the wire from the ECU go to pin 86 so that the relay operates when either of these switches to earth when the ignition is on.

Black direct to fan motor

Problem 2 - 

Wire 1 to relay pin 86 

Wire 2 to pin 30 

Wire 3 to pin 87 (but this should go via the inertia switch if there is one. Alternatively you can wire an inertia switch between wire 2 and relay pin 30) 

Relay pin 85 should really be fed from an ignition-switched supply e.g. from fuse 4 (green wires) 

Problem 3 -  The green/red is supply to the fuse which comes from the lighting switch. The red wire goes to the lamps including a feed to the panel lamps via the rheostat.  There will only be power to the fuse when the lighting switch is on. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by RobH
added detail about inertia switch

[iani]

8 minutes ago, RobH said:

I am assuming the relays are modern types with standard numbering - not Lucas ones.  Pins 85/86 are the relay coil and 30/87 are a normally- open contact

Problem 1 - The description is not too clear I'm afraid,  so I am again making the assumption that the relay is to be in the supply to the motor and is to be operated by earths from the ECU and/or pink wires, then:

the green wire goes to pin 85

Brown goes to pin 30

Fan motor connects to pin 87

both the pink wire and the wire from the ECU go to pin 86 so that the relay operates when either of these switches to earth when the ignition is on.

Black direct to fan motor

Problem 2 - 

Wire 1 to relay pin 86

Wire 2 to pin 30 

Wire 3 to pin 87

Relay pin 85 should really be fed from an ignition-switched supply e.g. from fuse 4 (green wires)

Problem 3 -  The green/red is supply to the fuse which comes from the lighting switch. The red wire goes to the lamps including a feed to the panel lamps via the rheostat.  There will only be power to the fuse when the lighting switch is on. 

Thanks Rob, I'll wire according tomorrow and report back.

[Waldi]

Hi Ian,

that is quite a struggle, part by Autosparks, and part off course by yourselves.

The additional relays used on our cars all should have the same pin numbers. I use 30 A for all relays I have, all with a fuse in the relay-foot (so my wires go to this foot (base), and I cannot make mistakes if I have to change a relay on the road. I hope you have this too, but hearing you, probably not.

These relays have 4 pins, 2 are for the main current (it does not matter if they are switched), the other 2 are for a small coil, that, when energised, will connect the 2 ‘main current”- pins.

30 in “main current in” from the battery.

87 is “main current out” from relay to end-user (like your pump)

86 is “coil in” to energise the relays.

85 is “coil to ground”, likely always black.

 

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/simple-4-pin-relay-diagram.512623/

Hope this helps for better understanding. 

 

While typing I note Rob has responded, he is a e-guru (I’m not).
Waldi

[RobH]

 

2 minutes ago, Waldi said:

86 is “coil in” to energise the relays.

85 is “coil to ground”, likely always black.

Oops - that might cause some confusion because I have described it above as the other way round. In fact it really doesn't matter which way round those two are connected since the coil is not connected to anything else. 

[Waldi]

Hi Rob,

there we go. I just picked a diagram from the www. I agree it would not matter to swap 85 with 86, maybe there is an international standard that specifies which goes where.

Ian,
just follow Rob’s guidance, it is more tailored for your application.

Cheers,

Waldi

 

[RobH]

 At the risk of confusing everyone even further:  Actually there is an instance where it would matter and that is if the relays have internal 'commutation' diodes connected across the coil. In that case it is important that pin 86 is the more positive one which is fine for a negative-earth vehicle.  Unfortunately it also  means that type of relay must have the connections reversed for a positive-earth car. Why can't things be simple? 

Edited January 24, 2021 by RobH

[jpmf]

Ian,

I'm no electrician but I took my switch wire for the fuel pump relay from the inertia switch connected to relay pin 86.

This keeps your inertia switch and it's also an ignition feed from the fuse box, also used it to switch the coil pack relay.

[iani]

14 minutes ago, jpmf said:

Ian,

I'm no electrician but I took my switch wire for the fuel pump relay from the inertia switch connected to relay pin 86.

This keeps your inertia switch and it's also an ignition feed from the fuse box, also used it to switch the coil pack relay.

I don't have an inertia feed though, it's a '69 CP car so it's not in the loom

 

[iani]

1 hour ago, RobH said:

I am assuming the relays are modern types with standard numbering - not Lucas ones.  Pins 85/86 are the relay coil and 30/87 are a normally- open contact

Problem 1 - The description is not too clear I'm afraid,  so I am again making the assumption that the relay is to be in the supply to the motor and is to be operated by earths from the ECU and/or pink wires, then:

the green wire goes to pin 85

Brown goes to pin 30

Fan motor connects to pin 87

both the pink wire and the wire from the ECU go to pin 86 so that the relay operates when either of these switches to earth when the ignition is on.

Black direct to fan motor

Problem 2 - 

Wire 1 to relay pin 86

Wire 2 to pin 30 

Wire 3 to pin 87

Relay pin 85 should really be fed from an ignition-switched supply e.g. from fuse 4 (green wires)

Problem 3 -  The green/red is supply to the fuse which comes from the lighting switch. The red wire goes to the lamps including a feed to the panel lamps via the rheostat.  There will only be power to the fuse when the lighting switch is on. 

Hi Rob,

Problem 1 - This gives me manual control of the fan, for some reason the thermostat control isn't working, I have checked the ECU setting and it should be ok, the temperature is being reported to the ECU correctly, the fan just doesn't kick in. 

Problem 2 - I ran in a 12v feed direct from the battery to pin 85 (didn't read your post correctly) the pump worked fine, the only problem was I couldn't turn the engine off with the key, I had to physically pull the supply to the pump

Problem 3 - Thanks, obviously you were correct.

 

That's enough for one weekend.

[jpmf]

Ian, some sort of ignition switch to pin 86, you need to trigger the relay

[iani]

4 minutes ago, jpmf said:

Ian, some sort of ignition switch to pin 86, you need to trigger the relay

The ECU triggers the relay, it provides a switched earth.

[iani]

15 hours ago, iani said:

Hi Rob,

Problem 1 - This gives me manual control of the fan, for some reason the thermostat control isn't working, I have checked the ECU setting and it should be ok, the temperature is being reported to the ECU correctly, the fan just doesn't kick in. 

Problem 2 - I ran in a 12v feed direct from the battery to pin 85 (didn't read your post correctly) the pump worked fine, the only problem was I couldn't turn the engine off with the key, I had to physically pull the supply to the pump

Problem 3 - Thanks, obviously you were correct.

 

That's enough for one weekend.

Hi Rob,

Problem 1 - This gives me manual control of the fan, for some reason the thermostat control isn't working, I have checked the ECU setting and it should be ok, the temperature is being reported to the ECU correctly, the fan just doesn't kick in. Problem still there, will try to check ECU control wire today

Problem 2 - I ran in a 12v feed direct from the battery to pin 85 (didn't read your post correctly) the pump worked fine, the only problem was I couldn't turn the engine off with the key, I had to physically pull the supply to the pump UPDATE - I have now run the 12v supply from switch 4, however, the engine still runs once key removed, I have to pull supply wire to pump to kill it

 

[RobH]

It's very difficult to diagnose things without knowing the circuit as things are obviously rather non-standard. It sounds as though there is some confusion in the ignition circuit. There should only be power getting to that with the ignition switched on.  

I would expect that with the ignition off there should be no power to the ECU and no power to fuse 4 and pin 85 of the pump relay. It sounds as though that is not the case.  The petrol pump should only run when the relay is closed and that can only happen if there is power to both the above.  

Is it possible that the wires on the ignition switch are in the wrong positions?

[iani]

2 hours ago, RobH said:

It's very difficult to diagnose things without knowing the circuit as things are obviously rather non-standard. It sounds as though there is some confusion in the ignition circuit. There should only be power getting to that with the ignition switched on.  

I would expect that with the ignition off there should be no power to the ECU and no power to fuse 4 and pin 85 of the pump relay. It sounds as though that is not the case.  The petrol pump should only run when the relay is closed and that can only happen if there is power to both the above.  

Is it possible that the wires on the ignition switch are in the wrong positions?

I have one of RTR's Auxiliary fuseboxes, that gives 4 ignition controlled and 4 permanently live fuses, this connects to the alternator for power and to fuse 4 for the ignition control. I have the ECU power supply coming from this box, I have just tried turning the car off and then checking the ignition controlled side of the RTR fusebox, it is still live. I followed the wiring diagram to connect up the ignition switch but I will check it again this evening.

[iani]

3 hours ago, RobH said:

It's very difficult to diagnose things without knowing the circuit as things are obviously rather non-standard. It sounds as though there is some confusion in the ignition circuit. There should only be power getting to that with the ignition switched on.  

I would expect that with the ignition off there should be no power to the ECU and no power to fuse 4 and pin 85 of the pump relay. It sounds as though that is not the case.  The petrol pump should only run when the relay is closed and that can only happen if there is power to both the above.  

Is it possible that the wires on the ignition switch are in the wrong positions?

I've just checked the ignition switch and all wires are in their correct positions, I am using one of the Aux pins to supply my Voltmeter as Autosparks screwed that up but when I started the car with that disconnected it still wouldn't shutdown so it's not the problem. When I turn the ignition off there is 5.3V present at Fuse 4, something is feeding that current in, I just don't know what.

[RobH]

OK -  is it possible to disconnect the 4 permanently-live feeds one at a time and see if that voltage disappears?  That might tell you which circuit is causing the problem. The voltage is lower than battery which tells us it is coming via something resistive - possibly a relay coil or a lamp.

[astontr6]

21 minutes ago, RobH said:

OK -  is it possible to disconnect the 4 permanently-live feeds one at a time and see if that voltage disappears?  That might tell you which circuit is causing the problem. The voltage is lower than battery which tells us it is coming via something resistive - possibly a relay coil or a lamp.

I had a problem with my ignition s/w 2 years ago, where if I turned the ignition off the engine kept running. It turned out to be a fault with the ignition s/w, something had gone wrong with the internals of the s/w. Apparently not unknown?

Bruce.

[iani]

2 hours ago, RobH said:

OK -  is it possible to disconnect the 4 permanently-live feeds one at a time and see if that voltage disappears?  That might tell you which circuit is causing the problem. The voltage is lower than battery which tells us it is coming via something resistive - possibly a relay coil or a lamp.

I believe the issue to be ECU related Rob, Emerald are helping me work through what I am seeing there. I have the coolant fun running fine off a manual switch, it runs off the ECU control wire when it is disconnected and earthed out, it just doesn't work under ECU control (I have even tried a spare Aux output to no effect). 

The running on is interesting, in testing the cooling fan with the control wire disconnected and earthed, turning the ignition off did actually stop the engine, once only mind, I was unable to repeat this. If it helps, the fuel pump relay is wired as follows:

30 - 12V supply - NOT ignition controlled

85 - Brown wire from ECU (pin 20) - this is a switched earth

86 - Ignition controlled supply

87 - output to fuel pump & injectors

[iani]

2 hours ago, astontr6 said:

I had a problem with my ignition s/w 2 years ago, where if I turned the ignition off the engine kept running. It turned out to be a fault with the ignition s/w, something had gone wrong with the internals of the s/w. Apparently not unknown?

Bruce.

This is interesting Bruce, this is a new ignition switch, they are very cheap and poor quality control really wouldn't surprise me, blasted thing is on velcro anyway now, I might well swap it out for the old one

[RobH]

1 hour ago, iani said:

I believe the issue to be ECU related Rob, Emerald are helping me work through what I am seeing there. I have the coolant fun running fine off a manual switch, it runs off the ECU control wire when it is disconnected and earthed out, it just doesn't work under ECU control

If changing the switch doesn't cure it, I wonder about earths.  It would be worth confirming that everything you think is an earth is actually connected. 

Imagine (for instance) two loads one connected to a switched supply and the other to an always-on supply, but both with the other terminal going to a common earth point.   If the earth is actually not there the two loads are in effect connected in series and the supply will travel from the always-on point through both loads to the point which ought to be a switched supply..... In your case the common earth may be at the ECU which might explain why it doesn't switch the cooling fan as it should. 

 

[iani]

4 minutes ago, RobH said:

If changing the switch doesn't cure it, I wonder about earths.  It would be worth confirming that everything you think is an earth is actually connected. 

Imagine (for instance) two loads one connected to a switched supply and the other to an always-on supply, but both with the other terminal going to a common earth point.   If the earth is actually not there the two loads are in effect connected in series and the supply will travel from the always-on point through both loads to the point which ought to be a switched supply..... In your case the common earth may be at the ECU which might explain why it doesn't switch the cooling fan as it should. 

 

I'm sorted Rob, I have had excellent support from Karl at Emerald, he suggested I remove the ignition warning bulb and that sorted the switch off issue, the car now stops & starts on the key, he is sending me a diode to put in the warning light circuit to prevent a recurrence of the issue. My cooling fan issue is also sorted, I've moved it to another Aux output and it is cutting in/out as per its temperature control settings, it looks like I may have a dead output on the ECU but I can live with that. Thanks for all your help with this, I'm obviously not a fan of electrics, I don't like stuff I can't see!

Ian

[RobH]

Good outcome!  Please its sorted Ian - that's another fault worth adding to the memory bank in case it crops up again. 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, iani said:

remove the ignition warning bulb and that sorted the switch off issue,

Is your ignition warning bulb LED or incandescent? Classic Car LEDs actually make the point that you shouldn't use an LED there. Just wondering.

John

[iani]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

Is your ignition warning bulb LED or incandescent? Classic Car LEDs actually make the point that you shouldn't use an LED there. Just wondering.

John

II am aware of this John and it. Is a standard bulb