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TR4 Fuel Tank Fitting


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I'm refitting my fuel tank after having my TR4's bodyshell completely restored, which involved 90% new panels including rear deck, inner & outer rear wings, boot floor etc. On offering up the original tank it is apparent that it no longer fits well. The main issue seems to be that the two top captive nut brackets which hang down from the new rear deck panel are just too long. I've ground them down and am now pretty close to getting the tank in, although it will be a tight squeeze. However, even though the 6 holes in the tank seem to line up with the 6 captive nut brackets on the car it is starting to look like they aren't all on the same plane i.e. the holes on the tank are all around the same central seam and I'd expect the captive nuts on the car to be on a flat plane. Yet the captive nuts (one at each side) appear to be further back in the car than the 2 top and 2 bottom nuts.

Couple of questions really, if anyone can help.

1. should the tank fit perfectly vertically into the car and all 6 tank screwholes meet all captive nut brackets exactly flush? Or do some have spacers/packing washers behind?  In my case I may need to pack the top and bottom two.

2. and this is a daft question I'm sure. Once I get the tank back in I'm going to refit the outlet pipe and union. I've got a new union/olive/pipe set and have run the fuel pipe from the front of the car to the tank. I understand the union into the tank is just a compression fit so I am just going to slip the union on the pipe, add the olive then offer it up the the tank outlet and screw it in. There is no flare on the pipe but I just want to be sure I don't need one. Also the kit included a 90 degree bent metal pipe (see picture). The stupid question is : what is that pipe for? Am I meant to fit that to the tank with the union before installing the tank, because I'm wondering how I can tighten the union with the tank installed!

Advice/encouragement gratefully received.

Thanks

Rod

 

outlet.jpg

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Rod - the mounting holes in the flange around the tank are all in the same plane and hence your bodyshell mountings should be the same. Did you brace the rear shell area once you took the tank out before the work was done to it? I suspect not, and I hate to say this, but it sounds like the area around the tank/rear deck area has become distorted during the rebuild.

The bottom of the tank sits just above the rear floor area and is supported in this position by the mounting points in the vertical part of the rear boot floor - if this area has been put in too high, then that would create the issue you are having with the rear deck mountings - it is difficult to see how these can have moved downwards without that happening to the whole of the rear deck area which would then mean your B post and wing tops wouldn't fit - was the rear deck and its's stiffener ( which the top tanks mounts attach to) removed replaced during the shell rebuild?

For future reference. when doing major bodywork rebuilds in this area, it's best to make safe the tank and leave it in situ as a brace, then get a new one for when the rebuild is finished as it's more than likely coming to the end of it's service life in any event. Even taking an original tank out can lead to the shell springing out as any torsional strain in the area is released on removal, and this is why some people find new tanks need some fettling to the mounting holes to fit - tanks will be made in jigs so it is unlikely to be a tank manufacturing issue. 

It is good practice to brace the area around the tank as best you can before you remove it, if that is your intention and then after removal, make a template to pick up all the mounting holes of the tank - this will help your alignment no end.

Have you put a boot in the opening, and better still, the original one, as this will be a good indicator of any distortion of the shell in this area.

As for installing the pipe in the tank, push the olive on and leave maybe 1/4" sticking up above the olive so that you don't drain any dregs in the tank in to your fuel line, and then tighten the gland nut.

The pipe, olive and gland nut in your photo is for the other end where it connects to the fuel pump and is joined to the pipe from the tank with a piece of hose to take up the engine movement.

Hope this helps

Cheers Rich

 

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Thanks Rich

 

That confirms what I thought about the tank mounts. I was sure I had the tank in and out years ago, before the shell was restored, and it was a doddle. 

In terms of the vertical distance between the bottom mountings and top mountings I actually think I'm ok. The main reason for the tank not fitting into that gap easily seems to be that there was a great deal of metal below the captive nut on the top "hanging down from the deck" brackets, and that was fouling the tank itself. Now that I've ground that excess away I think I'll get the tank in further. And, having just remeasured, I think the top and bottom mounts are in the same plane. My problem appears to be the side mounts (which are welded to the inside of the wheel arches) are not far enough to the front of the car, so the tank will not fit flush to the top and bottom mounts.

So in answer to your question, the deck was definitely removed and replaced. As was virtually the whole bodyshell. It was handed to a professional restorer so I would have expected them to brace, measure and weld using the tank. To be fair, the whole shell is now back together on the chassis and painted. Everything else lines up. I did need a new boot panel too. It may be that they have just mis-measured when welding on the side brackets to the wheelarches. Still, it gives me a problem which I'll need to think about.

Thank you for the pipe/union answer too - I would never have thought I had the wrong end of the pipe!

 

Cheers

 

Rod

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Rod - if you can't get the tank in it's correct place vis a vis its mountings, how is it's filler inlet fit in relation to the hole in the rear deck  - if it's nice and central, then you will have to use appropriate spacers as you can't move the tank away from that location without losing that critical positioning - there isn't much wiggle room between the neck of the fuel cap and the hole in the rear deck to play with, particularly when you fit the grommet in the rear deck.

If you have no alternative, I don't see why you shouldn't make up suitably sized spacers, both in thickness and surface area ( to spread the load evenly on the original mounting face) to take up the gaps.

If as you say each wheel arch mounting is fixed too far back, and the filler neck of the tank is as well in relation to the opening for it in the rear deck, then you could unpick the welding on the brackets and move them forward - you could also possibly bend or reshape the top brackets dangling from the rear deck, but there would be a real risk of damaging the rear deck of your freshly painted shell - the one pair of mounting you cant now move ate the ones below the tank in the boot.

Its all a bit of a jigsaw puzzle but if you work on the basis of starting with a fixed and immovable point such as the fuel filler, then everything else sorts of falls into place - whether the mountings then match where they should be will be obvious.

Good Luck

Cheers Rich

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Hi Rich

 

Thanks, I will definitely follow that advice to use a central point and work from there. I'll use the filler cap.

Tomorrow I will  finish the top bracket mod to get the tank in and vertical. I suspect the side mounts are the odd man out and will result in the filler of the tank being too far back. It's probably only a cm or two but that's as good as a mile. Having to relocate the side mounts would be grievous as it is all so nicely painted but I'll see what transpires. 

At the very worst there may be an aluminium tank solution with modified side mounts so all is not lost!

Will report back, thanks a lot for your detailed input.

Cheers

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I've done what I should have done straight away. Putting a sheet of flat plywood up against the top and bottom mountings it appears to be perfectly in line vertically. Which is heartening. However at the sides the sheet lines up BEHIND the mounting brackets. Pretty much perfectly in line with the back of the mounting nuts. I've also just found that, although the left side mounting bracket is definitely welded to the wheelarch, the right side bracket was just temporarily "masticked" on. So I have one side mounting in the wrong place and the other unattached.

I have no idea what the restorers were up to, maybe they thought the tank got mounted from inside the car? Who knows. However they are miles away and the car is back with me. I did have a falling-out with them over the spiralling costs and lack of project management but let's not go there. After independent arbitration they agreed to complete the body & paint and deliver back. No way I could get the final work signed off as they just sent a truck to deliver it back, then scarpered. And this a supposedly reputable (and large) business.

Anyway, I'll need to think about my options now. It may be possible to "slip" the tank seam behind the left hand mounting and secure it from behind. Then the tank would be flush with top and bottom mounts and line up with the filler neck. But I won't have a right-hand mounting. It may be the solution until the car is running and I can get it to a bodyshop to put both brackets in the right place and repaint.

Nothing is ever easy.............alignment.thumb.jpg.a190f792d49d297d13584ff6a2b2f2a6.jpg

 

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Thats not a good solution, have a look online and see if there is a mobile welder near you and before you go any further get the brackets put on in the right place, he could grind off and reposition the one that is fixed and properly weld on the one that isnt, OK it`ll screw the paint a little in a few places but that could be sorted out further down the line relatively easy.(a strategic wet rag works wonders)

Stuart.

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The voice of reason Stuart, thanks. I was going to mull it for a while but I'm sure it would have annoyed me if I didn't do it right. I was being precious about a newly painted shell but not only is that the "right" solution but it will probably end up being just as economical.

I'll go ask the local group guys for any recommendations.

 

Cheers

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I know Pete, I'm still getting through the therapy. One day I'll be able to talk about it again. Funny how these days you can get an extension on your house and the builder sticks to the quote and keeps you completely informed if anything deviates. Many car restorers do too, but there are others out there who are happy to stop talking and keep invoicing.

My other wish would be for more specialists in Scotland and the North, a bit of competition for them wouldn't go amiss!

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Do PS Nicholson still exist in Forres ? They did an old friends Alvis many years ago and were really good. Body and paint plus the usual mechanics to get it rolling. 
 

this was place and the first time I saw someone gently refacing a cylinder head on a thick piece of glass with grinding paste rather than machine it to death.

regards

 

Tony 

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Sounds proper old school Tony. No, don't know of them. I did call up Kinkell Classics who are also up that way but when I asked about fitting my TR4 in they said they had a 5 year waiting list. Good for them but no help to me. I also got in touch with Yorkshire TRs who quoted but, in hindsight & naively, I went with a lower quote from my Perthshire people.

I'm not just saying this, but I should have been in the TR Register back then and taken advice. Sending it further afield would probably have paid dividends. Anyway, apart from this hiccup, I'm happy with their work even if not with their customer and cost management. As Rich has just said to me they could have advised me better on the most cost effective way to restore a rotten bodyshell, rather than going for the most expensive route. They are, after all, more of a custom bodywork shop and TR knowledge isn't their forte.

Live & learn!

 

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56 minutes ago, Rod Mac said:

 Anyway, apart from this hiccup, I'm happy with their work even if not with their customer and cost management. TR knowledge isn't their forte.

Live & learn!

 

As that is a major cockup its a bit more than a hiccup and your not kidding TR knowledge isnt their forte, a lot of custom bodyshops tend to be more adept a trowelling on the filler than precise metalwork.

Stuart.

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It's a minefield Stuart, getting recommendations and having a close relationship is so valuable. I did request they photographically record the entire body restoration plus prep & paint. And I've therefore got scores of photos of every stage, every panel fitting, the car in bare metal, primer, topcoat etc. The panel gaps are superb and the doors/bonnet/bootlid never closed like this! What is odd is that they were at great pains to insist I supplied the grille, bumpers, backlight and so on, in order to align panels correctly and ensure those items fit further down the road. And then they go and tack that mount on in the wrong place.

Anyway, progress today. I've been trying to fit the old tank by slipping the left tank seam behind the misplaced bracket and getting the tank into place snugly against top and bottom mounts. It is proving impossible as there is too much twisting involved along with potential scratching of the paint in the boot area. From meticulous measuring I'm pretty happy that, once the tank is flush with the top/bottom mounts, the top filler holes in tank and deck will line up. I've also got a local member who can help with welding the side brackets on correctly (once lockdown is over).

In the meantime it looks like I will need to remove the nearside bracket in order to get the tank into position and double-check that top & bottom mounts line up and also ensure the filler holes line up. Attached a couple of pics of the errant mount which will need (carefully) ground off.

 

mount2.jpg

mount1.jpg

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Talking of those photos during the restoration I went for a quick skim through them. I have many showing both brackets fitted so they were clearly using them as a reference. Quite why one ended up welded on incorrectly and one only "stuck" on is a mystery though. I have no photos of the tank being used to "build around" though.

 

rebuilddeck.JPG

rebuilddeck2.JPG

rebuilddeck3.JPG

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