Brian Eldred Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 Having just fitted a recon J-type overdrive gearbox to my TR2, I'm re-connecting the clutch. I was a bit puzzled about the slave cylinder, but after some research I discovered that what I have is a TR5/6 cylinder, which apparently is Lockheed 1'' bore as opposed to 1 1/8'' for the correct TR2/3 Lockheed type. It seems these were used as an alternative when the originals weren't available. A couple of questions: From the picture, am I right in saying that it's mounted on the wrong side of the bracket, i.e. it should be on the engine side, the same as the Girling cylinders? How long should the pushrod be? Mine is 4 7/8 '' I guess the smaller bore will mean less pedal travel but more effort? I'm wondering if anyone has used this setup before I start messing about with it. Thanks, Brian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 I had these problems for many years. My slave would have the pushrod at an angle which wore out the cylinder on one side. I finally discovered, after at least two replacements, that Girling and Lockheed had different mounting brackets. My handbook had a picture but it showed Lockheed without making any mention of the change to the GirlingI support bracket . I worked it out by checking the part numbers in the Moss catalogue. I bought the Girling bracket and fitted it at home. In the end I took the TR3A to my local garage because I could not bleed the clutch. They identified the problem . It was the pushrod that was also Lockheed and too short. They made a new one with the correct thread, which was very inventive . They bled the hydraulics and I have never had to even think about it all again. I forget which side the bracket has to be mounted. If no one else can post the answer, I will go outside and have a look when it stops raining. I like the second picture with the proper driving gloves ! Good luck . You can win with perseverance. Richard & B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) There are two ways to vary the mounting, cylinder either side of the plate, plate either side of the gearbox flange. & there are different plates for different cars. I seem to remember that the Lockheed cylinder does go on the opposite side of the plate to the Girling But can't remember which is which ! Bob. (not much help really ) Edited January 20, 2021 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Lebro said: There are two ways to vary the mounting, cylinder either side of the plate, plate either side of the gearbox flange. & there are different plates for different cars. I seem to remember that the Lockheed cylinder does go on the opposite side of the plate to the Girling But can't remember which is which ! Bob. (not much help really ) Lockheed goes on the back and Girling goes on the front , two different plates and two different push rods. Stuart. Edited January 20, 2021 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Eldred Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, stuart said: Lockheed goes on the front and Girling goes on the back, two different plates and two different push rods. Stuart. Stuart, by 'on the front' do you mean the gearbox side, like mine is currently mounted? That to me is the back My TR6 (Lockheed) cylinder looks a similar shape to the Girling one, so I would think it should mount engine side. Looking at the images of the plates on the Moss website, I've got the Girling type. Not sure what the difference is? So a right mish mash. I can't find any reference anywhere to the length of the pushrod - Moss say 'cut to length'! I guess I will have to suck it and see... Brian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 12 minutes ago, Brian Eldred said: Stuart, by 'on the front' do you mean the gearbox side, like mine is currently mounted? That to me is the back My TR6 (Lockheed) cylinder looks a similar shape to the Girling one, so I would think it should mount engine side. Looking at the images of the plates on the Moss website, I've got the Girling type. Not sure what the difference is? So a right mish mash. I can't find any reference anywhere to the length of the pushrod - Moss say 'cut to length'! I guess I will have to suck it and see... Brian read my post again as I edited it, by back I mean the rear of the bracket and vice versa, you will have a similar Girling cylinder on your 6. The Lockheed cylinder is very short and dumpy. Stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 This is a Girling cylinder mounted on a 3a Stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 A picture tells a thousand words. Good luck with adapting the pushrod . Richard & B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Eldred Posted January 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 I've re-fitted the cylinder on the engine side of the mounting plate and it seems to work, though the push rod is adjusted to it's maximum plus a bit - it could do with being a bit longer - and is not quite in line with the cylinder. According to Revington the TR6 (non-adjustable) pushrod is 6'' to the centre of the clevis pin hole. Mine is extended a good bit longer than that. I've only tested the clutch as far as turning the gearbox flange with it in gear - it seems to disengage OK, but the pedal is quite heavy. I'll try running it without the propshaft on in due course. Incidentally, to quote the Moss catalogue: 'All TRs from 1957 were equipped with Girling hydraulics up to the TR6 which had the complete Girling system, except for the utilisation of a Lockheed slave cylinder.' But similar shape to the Girling unit it seems rather than the short early Lockheed unit. Brian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 I'll just drop this one in, has anyone fitted a Concentric Slave Cylinder? this is the type that fits around the first motion shaft within the bell housing. my next door neighbour's fitted one to his MG Midget and seems very happy with it..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ralph Whitaker Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 13 hours ago, Nigel C said: I'll just drop this one in, has anyone fitted a Concentric Slave Cylinder? this is the type that fits around the first motion shaft within the bell housing. my next door neighbour's fitted one to his MG Midget and seems very happy with it..... I have never liked the idea. I can see why manufacturers do it but they tend to be expensive, and if it leaks its a gearbox out job, but it is the normal now. In theory they should last the life of a clutch, and there are no taper pins to break. Ralph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 Hi Nigel Marco (Z320) on here has a long thread running designing and fitting a rather nice co-axial slave. There are also proprietary sources Co-Ax The main advantages to the driver is a lighter clutch pedal (usually) and it removes the fear of the taper pin breaking. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 thanks both, yea I don't like the taper pin arrangement as friends have had problems in the past. My neighbour fitted his to reduce the pedal pressure, he's running a ceramic clutch & straight cut type 9 box so there's plenty of upgrades for him! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 My pushrod would not line up well. It was the mounting bracket which was a Lockheed and my car should be Girling. I bought the right one from Moss and it worked. If it is not straight into the cylinder it will wear out the seal on one side. They look the same but it makes a big difference to have the right one Richard & B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, Richardtr3a said: My pushrod would not line up well. It was the mounting bracket which was a Lockheed and my car should be Girling. I bought the right one from Moss and it worked. If it is not straight into the cylinder it will wear out the seal on one side. They look the same but it makes a big difference to have the right one Richard & B I remade my bracket and now the push rod is aligned much better. 6mm Ali Alloy works well. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 mmmm that's something I will have to look at as I'm pretty sure mines at an angle and I didn't realise there were two brackets, still engine and box should be coming out soon (fingers crossed) so it will be easy (er) to assess. Has anyone got photos of both side by side, that would be great Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 The two brackets look very similar and a photograph is unlikely to help. I could send you a hard copy template. Is there another way ? Good luck Richard & B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 thanks for the offer, I'll come back to you if I may when I get to it... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Eldred Posted January 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 22 hours ago, Richardtr3a said: My pushrod would not line up well. It was the mounting bracket which was a Lockheed and my car should be Girling. I bought the right one from Moss and it worked. If it is not straight into the cylinder it will wear out the seal on one side. They look the same but it makes a big difference to have the right one Richard & B I don't understand why they should be different. The clutch arm is the same, so wouldn't the centre point of the cylinder be in the same place? Or am I missing something Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 Hi Brian, like a great many Standard TRiumph parts they may not have been designed to be exact but good enough. The centre line of the Lockheed bracket that holds the slave may not be the same as the centre line of the Girling bracket. Even the Girling bracket is NOT correct. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Eldred Posted June 14, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2022 Sorry to resurrect this post, but I'm still having clutch problems. The clutch 'feels' OK and engages with the pedal half way up, but engaging any gear is now hit and miss (it worked OK for a while, but I've only done 100 miles while resolving other issues...). When I look at the slave cylinder, I can manually push the push rod back a fair way - the spring isn't retracting it fully. Then the pedal goes most of the way down with little resistance and I have to pump it. Also, without the push rod retracting I don't know how to adjust the clearance. Could it be a swollen hose inhibiting the return of the fluid? It's been sitting for 25 years but with silicon fluid. The parts were bought new in 1997: TR6 slave cylinder UKC8677, TR2 hose GVP1001. I don't know which mounting plate I have. The original TR2 Lockheed cylinders are now available again, so is it worth replacing the lot? The only question that would leave me with is the correct length of the push rod. Any further advice appreciated! Brian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AJ2014 Posted June 14, 2022 Report Share Posted June 14, 2022 Brian This is a useful comparison of both styles of clutch slave cylinder arrangement. You can see the two bracket shapes and how they differ and also which side of the bracket each cylinder should mount. Ref:Moss Catalogue Regards Ade Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted June 14, 2022 Report Share Posted June 14, 2022 If you need a Lockheed bracket then I have one you can have for the cost of the postage. Stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Eldred Posted June 14, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2022 2 hours ago, AJ2014 said: Brian This is a useful comparison of both styles of clutch slave cylinder arrangement. You can see the two bracket shapes and how they differ and also which side of the bracket each cylinder should mount. Ref:Moss Catalogue Regards Ade The main difference in the bracket looks to be the straight side on the Lockheed v the curved side on the Girling. Mine has the curved side, which fits around the bell housing. This suggests that the Lockheed one fits in front of the bell housing. MEV Spares has the Lockheed cylinder and hose at very reasonable prices so I think this is the way to go, but it seems the bracket is no longer available. So it's either see if it fits the Girling bracket, or make one. Anyone have a picture /pattern? The pushrod is also at a bit of an angle, but it looks like using the end hole on the clutch arm would line it up better, unless the correct bracket would do that. Brian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted June 14, 2022 Report Share Posted June 14, 2022 51 minutes ago, Brian Eldred said: The main difference in the bracket looks to be the straight side on the Lockheed v the curved side on the Girling. Mine has the curved side, which fits around the bell housing. This suggests that the Lockheed one fits in front of the bell housing. MEV Spares has the Lockheed cylinder and hose at very reasonable prices so I think this is the way to go, but it seems the bracket is no longer available. So it's either see if it fits the Girling bracket, or make one. Anyone have a picture /pattern? The pushrod is also at a bit of an angle, but it looks like using the end hole on the clutch arm would line it up better, unless the correct bracket would do that. Brian See my above answer Brian, I have a bracket if you want it. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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