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'Curtilage Listing' a warning for house buyers


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Apologies as this will be of only passing interest to a few of you and NO interest to most! 

Many of you will know that I and my far better long suffering half have been looking for a new house having sold ours back in the summer of 2020.

I have previuosly posted asking about the pro's and con's of listed property and thank you to those that responded your input was very helpful. In the end we decided non listed was the way to go for us. 

So after looking for months we finally found 'the one' an unlisted Hop Kiln in Leominster Herefordshire, 2 acres so enough space for a BIG workshop and a Ground Source Heat pump (see other post) for more novelty factor.

Full structural survey found nothing amiss, solicitor moving along nicely, Vendor a really nice couple bending over backwards to be helpful and push the move along.

Then last night idly flicking through the On Line  planning applications for the original conversion from Hop Kiln to residential I noticed a single line on one of the applications............'LISTED BUILDING CONSENT' !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Went to the historic England web site again ( had already checked site previously) no listing, had confirmed several times with agent property not listed,  only listing was for a barn next door but one to the property we are looking to buy, strange must be a mistake, flick through more application all have 'LISTED BUILDING CONSENT' on them. 

More digging reveals that  when a building is listed sometimes, if it was built prior to 1948, its not just the building but the grounds as well, as the Hop kiln was part of the farm complex it was granted 'Curtilage Listing' so in answer to the question is the building listed the answer NO is not strictly wrong. In fact  the current vendors were not aware (they didn't do the conversion) , and even the next door neighbour was not aware their property is also listed and any modifications carried out without listed building consent is a CRIMINAL offence.

Whole thing is further clouded by nobody is  now actually able to tell me what the boundaries of the curtilage actually are, (they differ from property boundaries) so just be aware if your looking to buy an older property and might be concerned about a listed property it not just the properties that have an official listing number that can have listed status ! 

Not sure if to walk away from the place at a cost of £3k for survey and legal fees or just take the plunge and buy the place anyway, got to a point where I'm sick of looking at cardboard packing boxes, trying to convince removal companies that they do need to move my treasured car spares and talking to estate agents, that and I'm getting hell from my wife as she had already 'moved in'  ..............................:(

 

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Graham 

If you have raised the question about listing with your solicitor and have a written confirmation from him that the property is not listed, then there is a discussion to be had with him concerning your expenditure should you pull out.

George 

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Sorry for your problems Graham. I'm not in any way a planning expert but have had to seek listed building consent for former properties we've owned.

Aside from the question of the deemed 'curtilage' it's also important to note that listed building consent can, in any case, often be required for alterations to properties in the vicinity of a listed building, even if they are on a piece of land that has never itself been been subject to listing. The term here is proposed work that affects the "setting of a listed building". Unfortunately what constitutes the "setting" is determined case by case and can also change over time. A common yardstick though is the "zone of visual influence" of the listed structure.

Ideally anyone acquiring property they intend to develop or alter in some way would do well to check whether any of the adjacent properties have a listing and at least you know about that now which at least means your due diligence has been very worthwhile. But unfortunately even then it's very hard to be certain about the status of the heritage assets in question and how their context will be interpreted when it comes to planning.

Bear in mind that you don't have to actually own a property to put in a planning application, or (as far as I know) engaging with the planning department to see what the planning constraints are likely to be in the specific case.

Very best of luck!

Nigel 

 

 

 

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Listed “ by association” by the sounds of it. Curtilage should be clearly defined at the land registry as well as the boundaries of land owned. That’s unless it has not been registered? This can happen if not sold in decades.

One thing for sure, you need to know the cartilage before embarking on any building/ development projects, development in the non curtilage land will result in you having to remove it.

Iain

 

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Knowing absolutely zero about the ins and outs of listing and curtilage, my question is;

 

What about your big workshop?

If you are unable to build the workshop you need (need, not want), where does that leave you?

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55 minutes ago, wjgco said:

Knowing absolutely zero about the ins and outs of listing and curtilage, my question is;

 

What about your big workshop?

If you are unable to build the workshop you need (need, not want), where does that leave you?

looking for a new property but in the dog house :ph34r:

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4 hours ago, Graham said:

looking for a new property but in the dog house :ph34r:

 

That's a rock and a hard place, certainly.

Best of luck

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I don't know if this helps.

https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/listed-buildings-and-curtilage-advice-note-10/

It apears that the decision on what is curtilage is down to the local planning department. I suspect that once it has been decided it might be difficult to get it changed.

In difficult planning situations my experience has been that you need to:

1) consult the planning department to see if they are reasonably supportive - including their heritage specialist. If you have an informal contact that can help.

2) get your local councillor(s) on side - if relevant both the parish/local council and the unitary authority or whoever has the planning committee.

3) have the neighbours support if at all possible. If the neighbours dont like it, they can wind up the planners and the councillors.

Best wishes

 

 

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Graham,

The MP for Leominster is Bill Wiggin. I do believe that he had a planning application turned down for something or other because of this Curtilage listing business. I think he also raised the issue in the House of Commons (but it got nowhere.)I’m sure he would be sympathetic. (That’s if he could be bothered to talk to you…)

Charlie.

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The best move is to contact the local authority planning department and  book a pre app meeting. It is also a good idea to get a local councillor on your side. 

We have just achieved a planning permission after nearly 2 years of discussions with our  LA. If it becomes difficult then choose a local architect who knows the planning department and pay his fees. It will not be cheap.

good luck

Richard & B

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If the curtilage is defined, development outside its boundary will be very difficult. Bringing paddocks etc in to curtilage is very rarely granted. I met one individual who built an in ground swimming pool in his pony paddock......he had to remove it and rebuild within the curtilage boundary. No I was not involved! :-)

Iain

Edited by iain
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Graham if you really do want the property then do talk / meet the planning officer and also the heritage building officer who you will have to deal with later re the listed house.

It is of interest to the current owner as well , if costs are to come for this so may be split them.

Best of luck and if not what you want to hear  just walk away.

Roy

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On 1/17/2021 at 1:43 PM, wjgco said:

 

That's a rock and a hard place, certainly.

Best of luck

Well decision made and needless to say I’m in the dog house that’s between a rock and a hard place, just couldn’t risk the workshop, only been waiting 30 years for it so not willing to risk buying a place only to be told I can’t build it :ph34r:

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Graham

ive been reading your post and to put Curtilage listing into perspective I’ve recently been involved in obtaining Planning Consent for a new build teaching block at a School where the main hall (listed) and associated buildings (Curtilage listed)  are adjacent to the new build. The new build is around 1800sqm over 2 floors so substantial.
In my discussions with the LPA Heritage Officer the main focus is whether the new proposals are harmful to the setting and or have a negative impact. I had a local Archeological Consultant available who did the initial assessment and was helpful when dealing directly with the Heritage Officers comments

I would advise you to speak with a local Architect who is familiar with the area and who has a working relationship with the LPA Heritage Officer. There will be someone who specialises in these types of applications.

Normally any Architect would generally give you an hour of his/her time free to discuss your proposal thereafter he may work on an hourly or daily rate, after which he/she should be able to give you a pretty good opinion as to your chances of success. Even if he/she take longer say a full working day the cost of the exercise is pence in relation to your purchase of the property

The other way is to make an application before you buy! You would need to serve the relevant certificate on the current owner notifying them of the application, that is If the vendor is ok with that time wise,.

You will be in for costs not only for the architectural work but probably ecological and heritage assessments. Fees for the Assessments shouldn’t be more than £1500

Architectural fees and Design & Access Statement probably £3k 

At least this  way you have peace of mind.

Regards 

Phil

 

 

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On 1/20/2021 at 9:35 PM, Graham said:

Well decision made and needless to say I’m in the dog house that’s between a rock and a hard place, just couldn’t risk the workshop, only been waiting 30 years for it so not willing to risk buying a place only to be told I can’t build it :ph34r:

You made the right choice. Life is too short to put up with the level of bureaucracy related to Listed buildings and curtilage. The original builders of the building would have been free to do much of what they wanted to do. it is nostalgia for a previous age that creates these problems. There seems to be an increasing number of listed buildings.

In the end it means we will all end up in a quaint, but totally impractical environment where it will be a crime to think about change.

Of course there is a need to preserve some historical buildings and locations, but it needs to be with a sympathetic view to reasonable change.

OK, I am off my soapbox.

TT

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