stillp Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 But TRs don't have "existing halogen headlamp units", so surely this doesn't apply? Next MOT time, I'll take a pair of filament bulbs with me just in case! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 Just now, stillp said: But TRs don't have "existing halogen headlamp units", so surely this doesn't apply? The words were obviously written by someone who thinks that all incandescent headlight bulbs are halogen. Don't forget that non-halogen bulbs pre-date even sealed beam headlamps and so are really ancient history. Whether the testers recognise the distinction in the words depends to be seen. I would guess they probably won't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bleednipple Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 11 hours ago, stillp said: But TRs don't have "existing halogen headlamp units", so surely this doesn't apply? Next MOT time, I'll take a pair of filament bulbs with me just in case! Pete Exactly. There's been a lot of chatter about this on other classic marque forums and it looks quite simple - unless you're talking about headlamp units originally made for a halogen bulb (which the new MOT rules forbid you to upgrade), then you're fine. Putting LEDs in an old-school tungsten headlamp units is still okay - unless as Tony says you're intending to rally the car in which case be careful of the relevant motorsport regs. In practice: if your TR has had the original factory units replaced/upgraded at some point in the past to 'replica' units with H4 bulbs, technically no you couldn't bung an LED in those. But on the other hand how is an MOT tester going to know what type of bulb that Prince-of-Darkness tripod lookalike unit had in it when it was supplied by Moss or whoever, twenty years ago? More generally this probably underlines the reason why >40 year old cars have been exempted from MOTs, as modern MOT standards move further and further from relevance to our old motors (BUT I don't want to get started on the "MOT or not" debate"! ). Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytr5 Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 I have had the below confirmed by Richard Bauckham (Specialist Motor Underwriter KGM Insurance) as follows: “We are happy to confirm that we have no issues with LED replacement bulbs and this will not affect the insurance in any way, provided that the bulbs fitted are of the equivalent or higher rating (watts to lumens) than the standard fitment bulbs.” This does not indicate that they are legal but does mean that your insurance will not be invalidated by fitting them. Please note this excludes the fitment of angel eye style headlamps. Thanks Pete Peter Barrett Cert CII | Cherished Vehicle & TR Register Insurance Manager A-Plan Insurance 2 Foregate Street, Worcester, WR1 1DB t:01905 930740 e:peter.barrett@aplan.co.uk w:www.cherishedvehicleinsurance.co.uk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 What is the Angel eye headlamp ?? Thanks Richard & B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 Hi Richard have a look here https://www.google.com/search?q=angel+eye+headlamp&oq=angel+eye+headlamp&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30l2j0i22i30i395l7.6283j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, RogerH said: Hi Richard have a look here https://www.google.com/search?q=angel+eye+headlamp&oq=angel+eye+headlamp&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30l2j0i22i30i395l7.6283j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Roger I am mounting a 100 mm diameter one of those above the Chuck on my drilling machine to get light where I am working. My current challenge is to find a Sensibly price 12 volt dc rectified from mains transformer. The common ones that go on domestic ceiling lights do not give smooth wave so the led is dimmer than if connected to my 12 volt battery charger. May well end up with a 12 volt bus bar from the battery charger! Peter W Edited January 15, 2021 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 Plenty here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313&_nkw=12V+dc+supply&_sacat=0 Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 How about a Switch Mode power supply Here Not too expensive and plenty of amps Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) Thanks Bob and Roger. I forgot the electronics world option. not sure I know what todo or how to wire in a switch mode power supply so went simple power in power out bought this. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-5V-12V-24V-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply-for-LED-Strip-CCTV-UK/162562112782?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160323102634%26meid%3Df2706e97f4414005bfed6e85b021a884%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D222317874207%26itm%3D162562112782%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1 Edited January 15, 2021 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 That's them. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 sorry me, a stupid question, but I ask for a friend: what does MOT mean in full words, please? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevo_6 Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 3 minutes ago, Z320 said: sorry me, a stupid question, but I ask for a friend: what does MOT mean in full words, please? Ministry of Transport The MOT test (Ministry of Transport, or simply MOT) is an annual test of vehicle safety, roadworthiness aspects and exhaust emissions required in the United Kingdom for most vehicles over three years old. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spyder dryver Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) The (non?) legality of aftermarket LED conversion is covered on the Autobulbsdirect website. The disparity between "legality" and MOT compliance" is referenced. https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/are-led-headlights-legal-in-the-uk/ Edited January 16, 2021 by spyder dryver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 Thanks! To know this makes him very pleased. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, spyder dryver said: The (non?) legality of aftermarket LED conversion is covered on the Autobulbsdirect website. The disparity between "legality" and MOT compliance" is referenced. https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/are-led-headlights-legal-in-the-uk/ Funny that 'H' stands for halogen. I thought the H prefix for headlamp bulbs predated halogen technology by many years. Pete Edited to correct 'halogen'! Edited January 16, 2021 by stillp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie D Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 I have often wondered what would happen if someone went to court for not having a "Ministry of Transport certificate" and claimed that it was not possible to have one because there is no longer a "Ministry of Transport" . (It ceased to be in 1970) Charlie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 28 minutes ago, spyder dryver said: The (non?) legality of aftermarket LED conversion is covered on the Autobulbsdirect website. The disparity between "legality" and MOT compliance" is referenced. https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/are-led-headlights-legal-in-the-uk/ Again we have more confusion. The first main paragraph from the link legislation.gov.uk (section 4 & 5) states that dipped beam and main beam headlights are required to have an approval mark (usually E mark) or a British Standard mark. For nearly every other application on your vehicle, an approval mark is also required. But aren't our cars predating all this nonsense Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 15 minutes ago, stillp said: Funny that 'H' stands for holgen. I thought the H prefix for headlamp bulbs predated halogen technology by many years. The requirements for car bulbs are here: https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/R037r7e.pdf The specification for the H-prefix bulbs does not dictate the fill gas but it does dictate the wattage and light output. While it may be possible to achieve the latter without a halogen fill, the bulb life would be very short. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 I agree Rob, but weren't headlamp bulbs referred to as "Hx" before halogen bulbs became widely available? The ECE Regulation has been revised several times, and the light output required has increased. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 I believe the original date of the ECE Reg was 1958 - could halogen bulbs be bought then? Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 49 minutes ago, stillp said: I believe the original date of the ECE Reg was 1958 - could halogen bulbs be bought then? According to Wikipedia: The H1 was the first halogen lamp approved for automotive use. It was introduced in 1962 by a group of European bulb and headlamp manufacturers. The bulb was not approved for use in the US until 1997. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trchris Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 My understanding is if you fit original period lighting that were made for the manufacture at the time your fine no E marking needed, because we are fitting new made today parts they must be E marked compliant( this doesn't just apply to lights) With the MOT the tester only tests what is fitted at time of test and is not allowed to strip and inspect so if the headlights pass the inspection and beam test thats it a pass! however LED headlight bulbs or assemblies should be E marked. Please dont swear at me its just my thoughts Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) The lighting regulations have not been updated since 1989. When I started making my LED rear bulbs I did a thorough check on the regs, Only vehicles made after 1986 needs to use approved (marked) bulbs. That lets us off the hook on that one. There is nothing in the regs that prevent tail lamps, stop lamps, & number plate lamps being LED type for pre 1986 vehicles. However, headlamps are required to be 30 Watts minimum. LED types draw less that that, approximately half. (mine are 19 Watts) and Indicators are required to be 15 to 36 Watts. LED types vary, mine draw 5 Watts. These two cases technicaly fail to meet the requirements, but only due to the out of date wording. If the wording had been "Equivalent Wattage" then They would comply. This is what I would argue if ever questioned, but the likelyhood of that actually happening is, I think, pretty remote. Of course if the 30 Watts minimum were to apply to the pair of headlamps (the regs don't say that it doesn't) --------- Regarding the MOT, if it fails it fails, I don't legally need one anyway, my reason for taking my TR for an MOT is to get a 2nd opinion on the safety of the car. Bob. Edited January 16, 2021 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bleednipple Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Charlie D said: I have often wondered what would happen if someone went to court for not having a "Ministry of Transport certificate" and claimed that it was not possible to have one because there is no longer a "Ministry of Transport" . (It ceased to be in 1970) Charlie. Per sentencing guidelines, starting point is Band A fine (=50% of a week's income). I'm not suggesting you'd get a higher penalty for being cheeky, BUT if you'd pleaded guilty in the first place rather than playing silly sausages you'd have got 33% off. And if you'd accepted the FPN as offered by the police you'd just be 100 quid out of pocket. (The offence, actually, is "no test certificate" not "no MOT"). Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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