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Help on Fuel Metering Unit Timing


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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Mike C said:

Congratulations on making good progress. Any air leaks in the inlet manifold and connected piping will make the car very hard to start. With regard to your sparks -whenever I see Lucas components in any electrical system I start fault finding  by checking all relevant earths.

HI Mike, yeah I figured so, I didn't fit the new vacuum link pipes initially because they are really tight and its going to be a bit of a b**tard to do and I was trying to minimise handling of those beautiful recond manifolds from Neil, they should really only be going on when everything is clean and finished but bureaucracy being what it is here I have to do this a little out of the logical sequence one would do a restoration and start the car before I break it down, its a registration/tax/import duty issue. But as you say, time to do it now as it could be leaning the mixture too much. I'll grease them up and squeeze them on. 

Good progress, this forum business is fantastic, I'm a man in a shed here on my own and I've never participated in something like this before, really fantastic resource.

Edited by TRier
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19 minutes ago, TRier said:

HI Mike, yeah I figured so, I didn't fit the new vacuum link pipes initially because they are really tight and its going to be a bit of a b**tard to do and I was trying to minimise handling of those beautiful recond manifolds from Neil, they should really only be going on when everything is clean and finished but bureaucracy being what it is here I have to do this a little out of the logical sequence one would do a restoration and start the car before I break it down, its a registration/tax/import duty issue. But as you say, time to do it now as it could be leaning the mixture too much. I'll grease them up and squeeze them on. 

Good progress, this forum business is fantastic, I'm a man in a shed here on my own and I've never participated in something like this before, really fantastic resource.

If you're fortunate enough to own a PI TR6 , there's nothing more useful for looking after your car than this forum.

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Sounds like you’re nearly there. Shot in the dark...given good fuel cones (well done!) and sparks visible, are you sure the ignition leads are in the correct order? I’ve messed that up twice; once by following the firing order in the manual (which had only 1,5,3 in the correct order) and once by getting everything 1 cylinder out (engine started but ran backwards :o). Worth a check. And I assume you’ve replaced points & condenser, set the points, gapped the plugs, etc.

John

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10 hours ago, TRier said:

Hi Jim, I'm in Ireland, in Kildare a little south of Dublin.

Hi TRier I’m here in Tallaght and have plenty of Spares if your stuck for anything give me a PM through here and I’ll give you my Ph Details you’ll also find us on the attached FB Page,Cheers.

3743C6F6-47F1-4C86-B335-6F4BF08A3761.jpeg

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10 hours ago, TRier said:

Hey folks, just for a laugh. If Neil (I'm assuming k_raven_smith is Neil) thought the manifolds/throttle bodies were bad, look at the clutch master cylinder!:o This car needed to find a friend!

Clutch crystals.jpg

Where has this car been living?

Bruce.

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Hi TRier

As its a CR series the MU timing set up is slightly different to the CP. Its not something I done (yet :unsure:) so can't offer much advice unfortunately.

My throttle pipes were also loose (ish) but didn't stop the car from starting just contributed to rough idle. I fitted jubilee clips which helped, as well as balancing the throttle bodies.  

Slightly off topic but I would say theres a lot of good info around but be careful to differentiate between CR & CP series as most of the info seems to apply to CP cars - for example the MU internals & throttle bodies are different 

Good luck

Alan 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, JohnC said:

Sounds like you’re nearly there. Shot in the dark...given good fuel cones (well done!) and sparks visible, are you sure the ignition leads are in the correct order? I’ve messed that up twice; once by following the firing order in the manual (which had only 1,5,3 in the correct order) and once by getting everything 1 cylinder out (engine started but ran backwards :o). Worth a check. And I assume you’ve replaced points & condenser, set the points, gapped the plugs, etc.

John

Hi John, yes new points, plugs, condenser, leads, cap, rotor and all set as per the manual. In terms of firing order I'm using 1,5,3,6,2,4 in anticlockwise order on the cap and 1 at 8 o clock (more or less), that I believe is as per the manual but I'll double check now.

Edited by TRier
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1 hour ago, TR NIALL said:

Hi TRier I’m here in Tallaght and have plenty of Spares if your stuck for anything give me a PM through here and I’ll give you my Ph Details you’ll also find us on the attached FB Page,Cheers.

3743C6F6-47F1-4C86-B335-6F4BF08A3761.jpeg

Wow, thanks Niall that's a very kind gesture. Niall Power here by the way, no I know why TR Niall wasn't available, this could get confusing! I'll contact you for sure.

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19 minutes ago, super6al said:

Hi TRier

As its a CR series the MU timing set up is slightly different to the CP. Its not something I done (yet :unsure:) so can't offer much advice unfortunately.

My throttle pipes were also loose (ish) but didn't stop the car from starting just contributed to rough idle. I fitted jubilee clips which helped, as well as balancing the throttle bodies.  

Slightly off topic but I would say theres a lot of good info around but be careful to differentiate between CR & CP series as most of the info seems to apply to CP cars - for example the MU internals & throttle bodies are different 

Good luck

Alan 

Hi Alan, I've set it up as per 19.35.01 P.I. Sheet 2 in the repair manual which is specifically for the CR series but I'm a little suspicious of it because as I said earlier the gears for the FMU drive can only mesh on one tooth or the next, there is no in between and adhering strictly to the aforementioned procedure the timing its a binary process, there is no discretionary setting and it works out at best only barely inside the parameters of ATDC and they are generous limits at that. The green book of service training notes that you referred me to has a different procedure and I'm going to look more closely at that. I'm also going to put circlips on the vacuum pipes I have for now, that's a good idea it'll be quicker and easier for now, thanks.

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33 minutes ago, astontr6 said:

Where has this car been living?

Bruce.

Hi Bruce, I dont know for sure as I bought it at an auction but it looks pretty much like a barn find, its very dusty and as its been off the road since the mid 80s in the UK climate and hasn't disintegrated so I would say its been reasonably dry stored. The bumpers and external panels and interior are all quite to very good for a car with this kind of past anyway, so definitely indoors and dry. Obviously the clutch fluid is hygroscopic so it absorbed moisture and then crystalised over the years, although I've never seen anything like that before and the brake fluid did not. At some stage a buffoon or a flock (if thats the plural for buffoon:blink:) got at the car and was either attempting to start it or destroy it. The throttle linkages had seized over the years and couldn't move but the throttle cable is broken at the pedal, looks like the pedal was just forced until the cable broke. Ditto the clutch master as shown was seized and the clutch pedal was pressed until it deformed and bent. The fuel pump and piping in the boot was askew and kinked beneath the fuel tank, again just rough treatment so the impression is of someone at some point looking for a quick fix and then giving up, unfortunately it also means there are little bits missing which is not a huge deal but to someone who doesn't know what these things used to look like it slows things down. The rest of the car is quite unmolested I think and will salvage well albeit with a lot of work, I'd rather have got it completely unmolested but it is what it is and these few things will soon be overcome and I can get on with the main restoration, but right now little bit of reverse engineering and forensic investigative work needed as well as restoration!

Here's an underbonnet photo, dont judge her too harshly she's had a rough time!

TR6 Engine  RHS.jpg

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is no 1 firing at the right time ?

you have nice cones of fuel .tick

spark . tick

firing order . tick

so is it firing at the right time ? check rotor arm position re lead 1 when tdc on 1. 

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The timing mark on the pulley may well have slipped, the rubber distorts with age. Try setting the static to 20deg BTDC.

MU timing is not critical, I ran mine for years with the rotor delayed by ca 30deg -I was obeying a diagram in the Haynes manual that had been printed upside down.

Peter

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Hi Niall

Picking up on Peters point & the unknowns around the car it may well be worth confirming the engine valve timing is correct & TDC is actually where you think it is. Something to rule out if nothing else.

Alan 

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Hi all, thank you so much for all the help and suggestions. Had a mull over some of the clues and had a go at it this evening and WUHA..... SUCCESS:D:D it started like a beauty. I'm not gonna lie, I made a mistake in interpretation of the repair manual and it struck me that I had when reading the green service notes book that Alan recommended. The FMU timing was I suspect as a number of you indicated not critical, I just abandoned the 20° to 45° ATDC business and simply timed it on having the No 6 injector port just start to appear as open when No 6 is at the top of its exhaust stroke, so number one firing, that seemed logical and simple to me and its easy to do, none of the agonising as to whether or not its enough between 20° to 45° or not, blah, blah, blah. However here is where I have to put my hand up, as I mulled over the nice simplicity of making the start of the injector port open coincidental with the start of the induction stroke, it struck me I misinterpreted the language in the service manual and was setting the ignition timing at 10° TDC but with NO 6 about to fire not 1! I took rocking to mean both tappets rocking not the valve changeover "rocking", only when I started to think properly about the basic strokes I realised it. Thats why the distributor didnt feel quite right when I sat it into the pedestal, it wasn't engaging properly and therefore stood off by 3-4mm and why it had more backlash than looked right. 

So whoops, dumbass move buuuuuut I'm not too cut up about it even though it was a silly error, after 37 years it runs and not half badly either, started first pick of the key, 60 psi oil pressure on tick over, small bit of advance on the timing from first start and it actually runs not bad, there may still be vacuum leaks and so on but its well within the realms of finessing at this point. 

Have to hand it to all of you guys and am very appreciative of all the help and encouragement, if I had you guys to do the restoration it would be done in no time!  Want to see a video of a happy father and son? The 1st one is real quick and dirty, just the first fire, the second one is after a few minutes warm up, I have one after a minor distributor advance and it really sweetened it up but the video is too big for here, I'll see if I can shorten it. 

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1 hour ago, ntc said:

Well done great to see back to basics and learning in a nice cold garage. The cars are simple and as you say just think it out, by the way how many miles has the car done?

Its done 89 thousand miles. Yeah cold nights these few days, still nothing a hat, coat and an IR heater can't cure!

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1 hour ago, Macleesh said:

Well done, your first victory :D

Now more pictures please and let's hear about your plans.

Thanks

Sean

Hi Sean, I’ll do that, what’s the procedure there? I presume it’s to open another topic or something so the topics stay on message? I have some video of what it’s currently like underneath, I’m going to lash into getting the body off now so I can get a clear picture of what the chassis is really like, naturally I’m worried about that as it could be an early hurdle if it’s not salvageable.

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5 hours ago, TRier said:

Hi Sean, I’ll do that, what’s the procedure there? I presume it’s to open another topic or something so the topics stay on message? I have some video of what it’s currently like underneath, I’m going to lash into getting the body off now so I can get a clear picture of what the chassis is really like, naturally I’m worried about that as it could be an early hurdle if it’s not salvageable.

Relatively new here myself so maybe not the best person to advise on etiquette, but I just started a thread about my car and add to it whenever something happens.

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Just caught up on this, great news you got it fired up and discovered the reason. Needs a lot of love, but at least it's being saved. 

Gareth

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