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Hi-Fi Speaker cables etc


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Ho Folks,

I've started this thread as a few comments were on another thread out of topic.

How good is Hi-Fi and the components you use/buy,

Many ready built systems tend not to be the Highest of Fi but are very good.

Speaker cables start off as simple twin 'bell' wire. This works but is Lo-Fi

The you have thicker multiu strand 'mains' wire - this also works but !!!

An interesting upgrade is to use twin and earth solid mains wire - this definitely works

Then you have the esoteric cables that have no oxygen, are silver many made from Unobtainium.

What makes the difference in the wires/cables  - usually it s the rest of the system.  A Dansette record player of the 60's will not benefit from any upgrade apart from a particularly well positioned dustbin.

However a top end Linn Sondek with comparable amp and speaker will not like 'bell' wire.

One decent record player upgrade is to remove the thin rubber mat and replace with a thick 6mm+ dense rubber. This helps stabilise the rotation of the platter

Solid twin & earth mains cable is better than any of the cheap stuff.

 

The deeper you go into Hi-Fi the deeper you must then go into extracting the last tiny amount. - madness

 

A couple of years ago at Malvern Andy Canning did his last disco with Wayne helping int he back ground.

The sound system Andy had was stunning - it was clear, precise, far too loud according to the silly old bu99ers it was for all intents and purposes Hi-Fi.

Even some of the music was decent.

Ther search for Hi-Fi is never ending.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

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Roger,

I was always told that high frequencies only ever travel on the outside of conductors. This being why microwave conductors (wave guides) are actually hollow tubes. No need for an internal core.
So as far as HiFi is concerned, for better high frequency transmission, you need lots of strands of wire, so lots of outside surface area. In that case 2.5 twin and earth would be the last thing that would work.

I would guess that “Capacitance” would also come into it somewhere.
However “Condensance” (A word only used by old age pensioners who still drive horseless carriages powered by motor spirit) would not be a problem because people who use that word would probably be too old to hear the high frequencies anyway.

Charlie. (71 in January)

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Hi Charlie,

not that simple.

Multistrand may well give more surface area for the HF BUT!!!! most of it is in contact so it makes a pseudo-solid. The HF shorts from strand to strand.

However you are quite right suppliers are making a fortune in selling 'high quality' multi-strand.

I went from a quality Multi strand cable to twin and earth 60A ring main and then you could hear the chap at the back of the choir passing wind (or whatever)

But again it does depend and what is supplying the signal (MM or MC pick-up) etc and what is deciphering the garbage - Amstrad pretend stereo with toilet roll 

or some stunning all valve silly thing at ££££££££'s

Roger

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11 minutes ago, Charlie D said:

I was always told that high frequencies only ever travel on the outside of conductors.

True - it is called 'skin effect' and is why multi-strand wire is preferred over single-core but it doesn't make too much difference at audio frequencies on the lengths of cable in a normal room. 'Skin' depth at 50 Hz in copper is about 8mm - or would be if the wire was that thick - and at 20kHz it is about 0.5mm. That means the resistance at 20kHz is greater than at 50Hz but at that frequency there isn't a lot of current flowing so it doesn't have much effect.  Most of the current is at low and mid frequencies where the speaker cone displacements are big, and large cable cross-section helps there which is probably why Roger's mains cable sounds better.  In any case the cable resistance is a small fraction of the loudspeaker impedance and it is that which dominates.

Skin effect does get rather important when you get up to 100s of kHz and above though.  

 

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Suspect the money is better spent on kit that puts the sound into a pair of headphones. (personal experience.)

Forum age group average probably means that age related  high frequency hearing loss means the money spent on the beaut cable won't result in anything extra actually being heard.

In my case, weapons training prior to the introduction of hearing protection, means I really get my money's worth out of the headphones.

 

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Quite true, sadly. One of my ears doesn't go above 8kHz now -the other is slightly better. I remember the days when I could hear the whistle from a TV line-output transformer..... 

  I still prefer big speakers though because I like to feel the bass as well as hear it.  Also headphones put the sound stage in the middle of your head rather than out in front of you. 

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1 minute ago, RobH said:

Quite true, sadly. One of my ears doesn't go above 8kHz now -the other is slightly better. I remember the days when I could hear the whistle from a TV line-output transformer..... 

  I still prefer big speakers though because I like to feel the bass as well as hear it.  Also headphones put the sound stage in the middle of your head rather than out in front of you. 

Hi Rob,

I have a special recording of the 1812 with Erich Kunzel conducting the Cincinnati Orchestra. They use real cannon from the  American civil war.

The vinyl gives a better sound than CD.  You can see the transition of the groove in the LP where the cannon take place. A very serious angular transition.

Not all cartridges can handle it.

I don;t don't know if it is the bass rattling ones ribs or cannonballs passing through

 

Roger

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good topic !

back in the 1990s i bought a medium quality HIFI setup 'blind' 

ie I took some new fangled CDs to the local HIFI emporium and they swapped kit in and out to achieve the best sound for my money, i think it was £1,000.

This resulted in a Marantz cd player, Sony amp and Celestion speakers,  and sounded just right for me.

Last week i finally replaced the Celestion Speakers which had been serving in my kitchen for a while, with some B&W 606 standmounts.

the difference in sound clarity is marked, I wonder if this was just the age of the Celestion speakers or actual progress?

Steve

ps, am using old OCF multistrand cable that i had laid under the kitchen floor in a rare act of foresight when it was rebuilt !

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It seems to me that all this "buffery" - HiFi buffs, Wine Buffs, Coffee Buffs and so on tend to be by the same people, and I think they spend their time dealing with removing imperfections rather than enjoying the experience. A reasonable HiFi system with average speaker wire is absolutely fine for most people. I would hate to spend my time trying to remove the last bit of artifice from a musical recording, when the original band/orchestra/musician etc. added enough of it to make the desire unachievable, by just doing their thing. If you want a live music sound, go see a live band/orchestra/musician. (once Covid lockdown is lifted!)

And don't get me started on grammar and spelling aficionados. The purpose of writing is to communicate thoughts. If the context gives sufficient information to determine what is meant, who cares about the grammar and spelling?

TT (Now off my soap box!)

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When I had better hearing I had a Marantz system. It was pretty good, but I replaced the scrawny speaker cables with wire I'd bought to connect up the 60 A alternator I'd fitted to my hot Imp. The improvement in sound quality was quite amazing. I gave some of that wire to a colleague who had a cheapo Amstrad system, with similar results.

The biggest rip off in the hifi world is the "oxygen free high purity mains cables" sold for ridiculous prices to people who think it'll make a difference. Here's an example: https://www.mcru.co.uk/product/black-rhodium-hercules-mains-power-lead/

Pete

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4 minutes ago, RogerH said:

The vinyl gives a better sound than CD.

Hmmmm a bold statement. :rolleyes: Which system ends up more sounding more pleasing is an argument which will run forever or at least until the next big advance.  

I agree with TT. Too many people spend their time listening to the equipment rather than to the music. A good average system is really all you need.
 

34 minutes ago, peejay4A said:

Biwiring anyone?

Or bi-amping if you are rich?

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11 minutes ago, tthomson said:

It seems to me that all this "buffery" - HiFi buffs, Wine Buffs, Coffee Buffs and so on tend to be by the same people, and I think they spend their time dealing with removing imperfections rather than enjoying the experience. A reasonable HiFi system with average speaker wire is absolutely fine for most people. I would hate to spend my time trying to remove the last bit of artifice from a musical recording, when the original band/orchestra/musician etc. added enough of it to make the desire unachievable, by just doing their thing. If you want a live music sound, go see a live band/orchestra/musician. (once Covid lockdown is lifted!)

And don't get me started on grammar and spelling aficionados. The purpose of writing is to communicate thoughts. If the context gives sufficient information to determine what is meant, who cares about the grammar and spelling?

TT (Now off my soap box!)

Tony, I was in full agreement with you until I read your second paragraph!

Pete

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I've just read the advert in your link Pete. How on earth do they get away with that bu****it without being prosecuted for fraud? 

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Hi Tony & Rob,

you are both quite right.

It starts off as a challenge to get to get the last insignificant semi-hemi-demi-quaver as crystal clear as possible and then some bast^^d in the orchestra coughs.

Eventually you realise that the music on its own is quite good.

Enjoy what you can hear. Some people can't do that due to mother nature.

Keeping up with the Jones's has a lot to answer for.

 

Roger

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1 minute ago, tthomson said:

Tongue firmly in cheek!

Best place for it Tony.

1 minute ago, RobH said:

I've just read the advert in your link Pete. How on earth do they get away with that bu****it without being prosecuted for fraud? 

Amazing isn't it. I think that to prove fraud you'd have to prove their claims wrong, all they need to do is find someone who thinks they can hear a difference.

Pete

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2 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Hi Tony & Rob,

you are both quite right.

It starts off as a challenge to get to get the last insignificant semi-hemi-demi-quaver as crystal clear as possible and then some bast^^d in the orchestra coughs.

Eventually you realise that the music on its own is quite good.

Enjoy what you can hear. Some people can't do that due to mother nature.

Keeping up with the Jones's has a lot to answer for.

 

Roger

If no-one else says it, then let me thank you for your sanity!

I like to listen to music. The high frequency imperfections are filtered very well by my ears, and the rest by my imagination! :D

My ancient Denon Hifi and Foster speakers, (I bought the speakers in USA when I lived there), are good enough, and I can play music from my iPad. (and my TV) though the system as and when I want to.

Meanwhile I'm off to get a coffee - none of your instant rubbish. The real thing - Colombian blend - single coffee bush supplied by ....!

TT

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Ooh Bi-Wiring !

My Marantz box and the 606's both support this so i may give it a try and see if i can hear the difference.

my favourite 'snake oil' in the cabling world is expensive HDMI cables claiming improved picture/sound.

HDMI transmits digital signals so unless the old cable is losing 1s or 0s then an expensive replacement cannot improve the picture or sound, or am i wrong?

steve

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4 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Rob,

The vinyl gives a better sound than CD. 

Roger

 

2 hours ago, RobH said:

Hmmmm a bold statement. :rolleyes: Which system ends up more sounding more pleasing is an argument which will run forever or at least until the next big advance.  

 

All extremely subjective, of course.  I'd say that CD sounds "cleaner" but that's mainly because there's actually less sound in it.  Now that pretty much all recording end up as digital files (even if they start as analogue in the studio) part of what I do for a living is to try to convince more of the creative community to record in true hi-resolution digital audio.  It's surprising how difficult it is to get producers and even artists to move away from CD-quality audio which really has big gaps in it.

Many would say that you can't hear the difference, but depending on what equipment/file type you are using I don't think that's true - even if it's true for my older ears which have had more than their fair share of abuse over the years...

Ok - back to talking about gear (which, no matter how good, can't replace the missing audio from any original digital recording). :ph34r:

 

Cheers,

Tim

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Yes studied this topic/been there done it.

I was told that the best speaker cable for a domestic over reasonably distance is multi-strand heavy duty ribbon cable twisted in alternate pairs into two conductors. This has the benefit of inductance cancellation, but also lies flat under carpets etc? 

Oxygen free waste of time, you will never notice the difference especially in the home with curtains, sofas, carpets. Most people are tone deaf anyways !!

C/  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Mmm ofc cable does work- I had an expensive Sony midi system when RDS first came out on the radios, the speaker cable was that standard black and red thin wire- swapped to ofc and immediately the volume was louder and the music was better separated- I then bought hifi separates- Denon 350amp, Marantz Special edition CD player and Kef Coda 7 speakers on Atacama speaker stands- oh my word the difference in sound quality was unbelievable. If anyone wants a good sounding hifi you cannot get better than separates- when I hear sound from anything else it's just sound - you either have good hearing or you don't - you either like sound quality or you aren't bothered- that's what it boils down too. I would however challenge someone who hasnt heard a good sound system to try it so you then know what your missing!

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