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TR3 SPACE SAVER SPARE WHEEL


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At the point in my restoration on deciding which wheels to fit. Car came from the USA with wires but not all the same width or number of spokes ,so will have to be rebuilt or replaced. I have one original size  wire wheel that will fit the spare wheel opening

If i go the alloy wheel option then  a 5.5 J wheel will not fit the spare opening so would need to find an original steel wheel as a spare, as it's not a space saver i am not sure if it would be legal?? 

Modern cars come with space savers and  certain Volvo S40 also V40  with 15" dia wheels have the same wheel 4 stud pcd as the TR. Any one considered this option, obviously i will need to check the rolling dia of this compared to the TR dia

 

regards adrian Salisbury 

 

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I think I recall a lot of discussion on this subject 

may be worth a search. 
I think the upshot was running with a “space saver” isn’t legal. 
 

Even if it’s original size. As it would be a different size to that of the road wheels as used. Eg the alloys. 
 

others will be along to correct me if I’m wrong. 
 

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This would be a good exercise for the TRR club to undertake perhaps with the FBHVC to get space saver wheels tyres permitted on out cars.

As the manufacturing company is now defunct they can't seek approval yet something should be done for the sake of safety etc.

 

Roger

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17 minutes ago, Hamish said:

I think the upshot was running with a “space saver” isn’t legal.  Even if it’s original size. As it would be a different size to that of the road wheels as used. 

Well if that is true Hamish, how is it  'legal' for a modern car ?    The beliefs of the usual barrack-room lawyers must be viewed with some scepticism I think.   If there is someone who knows the answer (real legal fact - not opinion based on a layman's reading of the words) as to why that should be allowable on a modern car but not on a classic, please step forward now.......... 

 

 

 

 

 

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Friday evening and a decent bottle of wine on the go...... why don’t we properly open this particular can of worms?

 

Few years ago now, l went to get the rear tyres replaced on my 3A...... He’s a good guy who supplies all my classic(old!) and modern car tyre needs... He informed me "he could no longer ‘legally ‘ do it with the inner-tubes".... We both knew, doesn’t matter how many spokes the wheels have, they would not all be airtight without the tubes!

Not to go straight into thread drift..... but, my old Elan Sprint (which was good for outrageous speeds on the odd occasions when It was on song) even on steel wheels needed tubes to stay inflated at the running pressure approx half what the TR requires

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perhaps it’s a case of just asking your insurance company if they are happy to cover you when using a different size tyre as a spare. 

And checking the legal position in case something happened whilst using one.

1 hour ago, RobH said:

Well if that is true Hamish, how is it  'legal' for a modern car ?    The beliefs of the usual barrack-room lawyers must be viewed with some scepticism I think.   If there is someone who knows the answer (real legal fact - not opinion based on a layman's reading of the words) as to why that should be allowable on a modern car but not on a classic, please step forward now.......... 

 

 

 

 

 

but Adrian is asking for a non legal opinion. He did post on here after all !!

:ph34r:
 

 

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I have 185s on TR6 wheels, and will be carrying a 165 as a spare. If I get a flat I will be using it, but mindfull to keep the speed down, as indeed you have to do with a "modern" space saver. I have the spare mounted on a narrower wire wheel, so will look little different from the side, and if stopped I will argue it out. All modern space savers have a yellow sticker on with the speed limit clearly shown, this may be a legal requirement, but difficult to fit on a wire wheel unless stuck on the inside of the rim. I also think I will only use it on the back where it is less likely to affect handling.

Ralph

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2 hours ago, RobH said:

Well if that is true Hamish, how is it  'legal' for a modern car ?    The beliefs of the usual barrack-room lawyers must be viewed with some scepticism I think.   If there is someone who knows the answer (real legal fact - not opinion based on a layman's reading of the words) as to why that should be allowable on a modern car but not on a classic, please step forward now.......... 

 

 

 

 

 

"how is it  'legal' for a modern car ? "

Here you go Ralph, Whole Vehicle Type Approval.

I spent the last 30 years of my life "tap dancing " vehicle specifications through and around type approvals as approved by the various European states which dictates how vehicles, cars, trucks, buses are built and approved for legitimate use. I don't know if that qualifies me as a barrack room lawyer but the 2 separate courts I attended as an expert witness upon vehicles that had been changed were happy to accept my word.  Now it's 8 years since I retired and last had the pleasure of perusing the intricacies of the WVTA legislation but as far as I know these specifications still exist...here, knock yourself out

To save you some heavy reading section 5 through to 10 covers what comprises a "Space saver spare wheel" 

Temporary Use Spare Wheel legal information.pdf

And this precis sums up why it can't apply to TR and what legislation takes it's place (Construction and use regulations commonly called C&U)

WVTA and why it matters.docx

C&U regs ref Mixing of tyres

26.(1) Save as provided in paragraph (5)

pneumatic tyres of different types of structure shall not be fitted to the same axle of a wheeled vehicle.

e of a wheeled vehicle.
(2) Save as provided in paragraphs (3) or (5), a wheeled motor vehicle having only two axles each of which is equipped with one or two single wheels shall not be fitted with

(a)a diagonal-ply tyre or a bias-belted tyre on its rear axle if a radial-ply tyre is fitted on its front axle; or

(b)a diagonal-ply tyre on its rear axle if a bias-belted tyre is fitted on the front axle.

(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply to a vehicle to an axle of which there are fitted wide tyres not specially constructed for use on engineering plant or to a vehicle which has a maximum speed not exceeding 30 mph.

(4) Save as provided in paragraph (5) pneumatic tyres fitted to

(a)the steerable axles of a wheeled vehicle; and

(b)the driven axles of a wheeled vehicle, not being steerable axles,

shall all be of the same type of structure.

(5) Paragraphs (1), (2), and (4) do not prohibit the fitting of a temporary use spare tyre to a wheel of a passenger vehicle (not being a bus) unless it is driven at a speed exceeding 50 mph.


Except that to be accepted as a Temporary Use Spare Wheel it has to comply with these regulations
Pay particular note to

Annex 3 Braking and deviation testing in use.

2.4 Temporary use definitions
3.1 Application for Approval as a Temporary Use Spare Wheel

And a few other requirements that the Car manufacturer has to comply with. Triumph doesn't exist, it never applied and had passed approvals for it's submitted Temporary use spare wheel so without these you fall back to the statement above in post 8

...but only the manufacturer can specify a space saver under WVTA rules, and what you are using, ain't one, it's a miss sized spare wheel illegal under Construction and use regulations. (because it's not been submitted and approved as meeting the braking and steering requirements).
Refer back to the definition above

"pneumatic tyres of different types of structure shall not be fitted to the same axle of a wheeled vehicle."
 

Mick Richards

 

 

 

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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1 hour ago, Ralph Whitaker said:

I have 185s on TR6 wheels, and will be carrying a 165 as a spare. If I get a flat I will be using it, but mindfull to keep the speed down, as indeed you have to do with a "modern" space saver. I have the spare mounted on a narrower wire wheel, so will look little different from the side, and if stopped I will argue it out. All modern space savers have a yellow sticker on with the speed limit clearly shown, this may be a legal requirement, but difficult to fit on a wire wheel unless stuck on the inside of the rim. I also think I will only use it on the back where it is less likely to affect handling.

Ralph

Hi Ralph

putting it on the back may not be the best place. When fitting a couple of new tyres they should go on the back and the part worn on the front.

Why not have the spare as a 185 but deflated and also carry an electric pump.?

Or carry the aerosol inflator stuff and an AA/RAC card for very bad punctures.

If you have a prang with the dodgy set up and you are found out you could be in all sorts of TRouble.

 

Roger

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I never said it was legal, and I wouldn`t advise it for touring abroad ( I don`t have a passport anyway), but if the owner of a Honda S2000 which is capable of speeds far in excess of our cars, and already has different sized tyres front and back, is allowed to carry and fit a 100mm wide tyre and drive home at 50mph I cannot see how using a tyre only 20mm narrower than the other tyres makes it dangerous if, as I said before, you drive sensibly. Interesting that the extracts from the construction and use regs only talk about tyres of the same construction, ie; radial and crossply and do not mention size.

I am not sure about the use of tyre sealants in inner tubes, I think it would work if the tyre hasn`t been driven on which tends to wreck the tubes, alternatively carry a spare tube and some tyre levers. One thing for certain if you do away with the spare there is plenty of room for tools and parts.

There has been mention before on here of using a "proper" space saver wheel and tyre, and at least doing that makes it half legal surely.

Each to their own, but I am sure there are quite a few in the club carrying narrower spares, especially in pre 60000 cars.

Ralph

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You all seem to have forgotten one other problem with different size spare wheels leaving aside the legalities is what the F*** do you do with the large punctured wheel youve just taken off? Im sure the missus would love having it on her lap :lol:

Stuart.

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16 hours ago, Tony_C said:

 

 

Few years ago now, l went to get the rear tyres replaced on my 3A...... He’s a good guy who supplies all my classic(old!) and modern car tyre needs... He informed me "he could no longer ‘legally ‘ do it with the inner-tubes".... We both knew, doesn’t matter how many spokes the wheels have, they would not all be airtight without the tubes!

I am out of touch with UK rules but is there a link to the law banning tubes ? So how do you legally run with wires ?

 

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This is the one that fits the TR if you add a 1/4" alloy spacer it fills the arch nicely. Clears 10" drums and TR6 front disc caliper - never tried on TR3 calipers.   You can get flock of sheep in the spare wheel hole around and over it when it is stored.

Peter W

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VOLVO-V40-S40-15-SPARE-WHEEL-SPACE-SAVER-1996-2004-4X114-3-PCD/114235669075?fits=Car+Make%3AVolvo|Model%3AS40&hash=item1a98f9fa53:g:WIMAAOSwGFRey4~F

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44 minutes ago, TwinCamJohn said:

 

Hi John,

Quick google really does open up the proverbial can of worms...... and mindful Rob ‘banned Barack room lawyers’, I really should not comment further...

 

However, I suspect this comes down to a grey area and or simple misunderstanding...... ?

  • Rules appear to be clear and concise that you cannot / should not fit a tube in a tubeless tyre.... which makes sense for vast majority (All?) modern tyres, wheels and cars..... from then on however, it all gets increasingly murky.........

Hope this helps and let me know if I can solve any other conundrums for you?B)

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I think the misconception over tubes is because some people think that because it states "tubeless" on the tyre it is against the law to run with a tube. As far as I know this is not the case otherwise we would need to fit "Tube type" tyres to our wire wheels. I think the designations were simply so one didn`t fit a tube type tyre without a tube and expect it to stay inflated.

Ralph

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Here you are, this is what Avon tyres have to say

https://www.avontyres.com/en-gb/tyre-care/car-tyre-care/tube-fitment

Ralph

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And this is an example of mis information on the web.

https://www.bigtyres.co.uk/blog/fitting-tubes-in-tubeless-tyres.html

This states sudden deflation as being the reason, yet when I used to do a bit of rallying it was a requirement that tubes were fitted in all tyres to prevent sudden deflation, such as hitting a rock whilst sideways which damages the sidewall or pushed the tyre off the rim seat.

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12 minutes ago, Ralph Whitaker said:

And this is an example of mis information on the web.

https://www.bigtyres.co.uk/blog/fitting-tubes-in-tubeless-tyres.html

This states sudden deflation as being the reason, yet when I used to do a bit of rallying it was a requirement that tubes were fitted in all tyres to prevent sudden deflation, such as hitting a rock whilst sideways which damages the sidewall or pushed the tyre off the rim seat.

Clear as muddy water - you must not if the tyre is tubeless but you have to if you have wire wheels regardless of the tyre type.

Then the caveat  We do not accept any liability for any consequences that may occur as a result of using an inner tube in a tubeless tyre.

Peter W

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I'd just go straight to where the problems would come from if one ever arose, your insurance company.  Ask the question.  If they approve your approach get it in writing.  Otherwise don't risk it.  It essentially gets you free legal advice.  It wouldn't surprise me if the specialty insurers (vintage cars) have dealt with this before.

Stuart has identified the other major risk.  A dirty tire on your wife's new white skirt.  Definitely not worth the cost!

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I don`t know if a deflated 185/70 will fit in the boot, if not it would have to go on the back seat or shelf. Unless you were lucky enough to have a boot rack.

Ralph

10 minutes ago, David Owen said:

 

Stuart has identified the other major risk.  A dirty tire on your wife's new white skirt.  Definitely not worth the cost!

 

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If you open up the boot floor to the spare wheel well, you will be able to fit the correct sized spare wheel in there, and, as Stuart points out, avoid the problem of where to put the wheel with the punctured tyre.

Personally, I wouldn’t contemplate a different sized spare for a number of reasons including how I’d feel should there be a ‘problem’ involving other people whilst using the odd wheel tyre combination illegally, and also the then consequent insurance problems and likely prosecution for driving an unroadworthy vehicle.

Sorry!

David

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