Clutch release bearing carrier; iron or bronze?

[PodOne]

Hi all

As per title which is better and who sells the best one as I don't fancy pulling the box in and out in the event of failure!

Cheers

Andy

[Bob Smith]

Andy, sent you a PM

[RogerH]

Hi Andy,

over the years there has been a great deal of debate about which is best. (I prefer GB40 GL4)  ooops!! wrong thread.

The Bronze (dark gold) carrier as fitted to the earlier cars has the benefit of self lubrication (without oil/grease).

They do not have the anti-rotation pin; this allows the fork spigots not to rest in one place.

Many people swear that only these are to be fitted to all cars.

The Steel carrier has had a woeful life (like the TR7) and in my view badly so. The do need a smear of grease at the start of their life but I have found them to work very well - on my TR4A.   They DO have an anti-rotation pin. This stops the fork spigot getting a flat spot.

A problem on the TR4A/5/6 is that the diaphragm pressure plate fingers tend to draw the bearing and carrier into the centreline of the crank/GB.

If the GB/engine are not aligned correctly the bearing/carrier becomes cocked and on return the carrier jams causing 'Ratchet clutch' or juddering.

This is not the fault of the carrier.

My Steel carrier comes from the TRShop and is coated in a black finish ( remember folks - black bearing carriers matter) and has worked well since 2015/16.

Whatever you do - do NOT use the Brass (bright gold) carrier it is too soft for our fork spigots - these work with slipper pads as per the saloon cars.

 

Roger

 

[Kevo_6]

14 hours ago, PodOne said:

Hi all

As per title which is better and who sells the best one as I don't fancy pulling the box in and out in the event of failure!

Cheers

Andy

Hi Andy, I used the bronze one from Revington TR after having trouble with the steel one from Moss.

[Z320]

My TR4A came with a bronze carrier with a stop pin,

this worked lovely until I swaped to a hydraulic release bearing this year.

To avoid problems with steel sliding on steel it is common to fit a bearing or simply a bronze bush between.

I my choice would be a bronze carrier.

Ciao, Marco

Edited November 5, 2020 by Z320

[silverfox4]

My original bronze carrier on the 4A

[RogerH]

Hi Alf, that depression is a factory made dent to simulate the anti-rotation pin. 

It is cheaper to do this than drill and fit a pin.

 

Roger

[Andy Moltu]

22 hours ago, RogerH said:

If the GB/engine are not aligned correctly the bearing/carrier becomes cocked and on return the carrier jams causing 'Ratchet clutch' or juddering.

This is not the fault of the carrier.

Roger

 

This isn't always just down to alignment - there were any number of poor quality release bearings that ran hot/seized, heating the carrier which then caught or jammed so you ended up with a less than smooth action. Depressing the clutch to disengage generally wasn't the issue but disengagement could very from smooth to sequential or just one big thump!

Over the years many have gone over to the Koyo/Toyota bearing. This is chunkier and can wear the fingers of the clutch and give a slightly heavier action as it contacts the fingers further out (slightly). This is(or at least used to be) the one supplied by Manners as their uprated clutch bearing. (And I think Revington too although theu used a return spring and adjustable push rod like the early TRs) I think this was to keep the bearing in contact with the clutch fingers continuously to avoid wear however most just use the bearing as I'm yet to hear of a clutch cover wearing through before the driven plate calls time.

Gunst used to spuuply a different carrier and bearing & cover.

I think TRGB have taken to re-greasing the RHP bearings they supply and seem happy with that.

The other thing that can result in juddering are burrs where someone has knocked an old bearing off a carrier prior to changing.  I would always just run a curved file around the inside of the leading edge just in case.

[silverfox4]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the confirmation on the dimple - it seems to work very nicely.

Cheers

Alf

BTW, still waiting with anticipation on your hydraulic conversion endeavors

[PodOne]

Thanks for the replies.

The consensus so far seems to favour bronze carriers so I've looked at the offerings from all the usual suppliers mostly in the £50 class from Moss/Rimmers which still use a pin to prevent the carrier spinning like the cheaper metal offerings. The one from Revington however is £90 with postage but is designed to spin. Does this represent a better solution given the extra cost and is there another supplier offering the same design? 

I'm not planning on fitting a hydrolic release  bearing.

Andy

[Z320]

Hi Andi,

I would not let the bronze carrier spin, and not at all if it spins only on the pins.

Ciao, Marco

[stuart]

1 hour ago, PodOne said:

Thanks for the replies.

The consensus so far seems to favour bronze carriers so I've looked at the offerings from all the usual suppliers mostly in the £50 class from Moss/Rimmers which still use a pin to prevent the carrier spinning like the cheaper metal offerings. The one from Revington however is £90 with postage but is designed to spin. Does this represent a better solution given the extra cost and is there another supplier offering the same design? 

I'm not planning on fitting a hydrolic release  bearing.

Andy

Take the pin out and let it spin, also fit new pins in the arm

Stuart.

[RogerH]

Hi Marco,

it may be beneficial to let the Bronze carrier spin.   

That will reduce any possibility of the fork pins digging in. Although it is less likely than if you used a Brass carrier

The steel carrier definitely needs the anti-rotation pin.

Roger

[PodOne]

So two for spinning and one for pinning on the bronze.

Metal pinning and no spinning.

Anymore votes?

Andy 

[michaeldavis39]

My car had the original cast carrier with the pin- the pin is not solid it can actually be pushed down by hand- nobody has mentioned this and I've no idea why the pin would move. My clutch was fine using this carrier.  However on doing my restore I left the carrier/ rhp bearing assembly on a shelf which I accidentally knocked and it hit a concrete floor so now carrier has two big chunks out of it hence my inquisitiveness on this topic.

[Z320]

Hi Roger,

bronze is wise to slide with a large surface on a large steel surface, BEST with oil between, only in the case of an emergency without oil.

But (in my opinion) it is not "ideal" to slide dry on the tiny surface on top of the steel pins.

Brass for any bearing use is forbidden. But everyone may feel free to knit his own ideas.

Ciao, Marco

Edited November 8, 2020 by Z320

[Z320]

Hi all,

allow me to show you this perhaps perfect TR release bearing and carrier from a german supplier.

The carrier is made of bronze - to slide on the cast iron neck of the gearbox cover.

I estimate there is always some oil there because of the small drill at the necks ground to drain leaking oil from the gb there.

To avoid the pins sliding on the carrier without oil (metal on metal) it has a stop pin (black).

Also the pins do not move (twist) direct on the carrier (only with the small tip of the pins) they are bedded in "sliding stones" (left).

With them the pins give the forces with half of their surface in the "stones" and the stones on the carrier. I would grease this. 

This is not a new but a very old machine construction,

shure the TR engeneers knew this but they did not use this construction.

 

Next is a photo from my release bearing and carrier, I guess this is an original - but modified.

You see "the dent" from the factory (it has been bended out anytime) and the groove the pin made by its own to get a larger surface - probably with no serios problem.

On the other side you suppose the stop pin which has been fitted after the dent was bended out (anytime).

Here it is, it worked like this at least since 1992, when the car has been restored at Germany, perhaps this has already made at the USA.

I see no problem at all by the groove, but my choise would be the pin and sliding stones.

You may now decide your own what to do.

Ciao, Marco

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Z320

[michaeldavis39]

The pin in my old cast carrier does not look at all like yours Marco- yours has been fitted by someone else - not by Triumph I would say. Your pin is thick and fixed solid - as I said I can move my pin- I will post some photos to show this tomorrow.

 

 

[RogerH]

Hi Marco,

Thanks for your description of your release bearing/carrier.

I have a number of old 'Bronze' carriers with small dents where the fork pins dig in and a number of 'Brass' carriers with much deeper dents.

I could fit a pin in the bronze carriers away from the dents and reuse them should I need to.

Hi Mike,

replace your pin with a Roll Pin

 

Roger