TR3 engine & box re-build

[Lebro]

Hi. (do you have a name ?)  When I re- torque, I only back off the nuts an eighth of a turn or so, just so that when I tighten them up again they do move, & usually continue past their original position. It's important to do the re-tightening in one smooth movement, so as to avoid going into "static friction" mode (which is why we slacken off a bit first) You want to be in "dynamic friction" mode when you reach the torque figure.

Personally I do them as described above one at a time, but in the usual sequence.   I would be a bit concerned about releasing one completely, but I suspect you would get away with it.

Bob

[Mick Forey]

particularly as it is usually the last one to be torqued up.

Mick

[BigBogan]

On 10/22/2021 at 1:53 AM, Lebro said:

Hi. (do you have a name ?)  When I re- torque, I only back off the nuts an eighth of a turn or so, just so that when I tighten them up again they do move, & usually continue past their original position. It's important to do the re-tightening in one smooth movement, so as to avoid going into "static friction" mode (which is why we slacken off a bit first) You want to be in "dynamic friction" mode when you reach the torque figure.

Personally I do them as described above one at a time, but in the usual sequence.   I would be a bit concerned about releasing one completely, but I suspect you would get away with it.

Bob

Hi Bob - Apologies, I probably should have should have introduced myself when I signed up.

My name's Pete, I live in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, (the holder of the record for the longest and most pointless 'lockdown' in the world), and we have a stable of Triumphs (3 x TR4, a TR5, a Dolly Sprint, a 750 Bonny, and a Stag), ranging from dilapidated rusty wrecks  to a couple we proudly display at the Melbourne Grand Prix semi regularly. My wife drives a lovely Stag which used to be her daily driver until we needed a kiddy delivery/shopping trolley, and now the kids are off our hands, she's likely to burn the 'trolley' and return to the Stag which she loves.

My wife is involved in a charity which rescues and re-homes dogs and cats, and I rescue and restore unloved and otherwise beyond-resurrection old Triumphs.

I think I'll back off all the nuts about half a turn and bring them back up to torque after removing and replacing the heater valve. I appreciate your advice.

Best regards

Pete

Edited October 24, 2021 by BigBogan

[foster461]

Pete, you and your wife are both doing good work. Keep it up.

[Lebro]

Not too different, I used to own 2 X Stags, a Dove GTR4, & a 650 Bonnie !

Bob

Edited October 24, 2021 by Lebro

[Adrian Fuller]

On 11/21/2020 at 9:21 AM, Lebro said:

A couple of photos of the Newman chilled iron followers, one as supplied (ok on size), & 1 which was 0.93685, before polishing down to 0.93630.

    

 

I note from the TR4 workshop manual (the TR2/3A one does not have any dimension info) that the diameter should be 0.9367 - 0.9371, & the bores should be 0.9373 - 0.9380

Clearance should be 0.0002 - 0.0013 with a wear limit of 0.0016

I have no way of measuring my bores, so what will be will be ! at least all the lollowers are in the same ballpark now, & are on average about the same as the TRiumph ones I took out.

I am at the point of fitting the cam followers and am really not happy with the measurements I am getting. I used a digital display micrometer and checked readings with my old vernier scale micrometer which support the digital readings. (photo below) in the photo are the measurements and include a couple from the two original follewers. 

So I have some 2000 grit 3m wet and dry.. Is this what I can use or is there something better snd what have others devised to attach the followers in a lathe? 

Thanks again for any help. 

[Lebro]

To attach the follers in a lathe, you just need to turn down some scrap alloy bar to be a tightish fit inside a follower, then mount that in the chuck.

Whatever grit you use to start, try to finish with the finest you can find, I used polishing paper to get an almost mirror finish. & measure often as you don't want to take too much off.

Bob.

[Motorsport Mickey]

If you can't measure the block cam follower holes I should go easy polishing those followers down.

They need to be "fettled" in to the individual cam follower holes, so clean and deburr the cf holes in the block and make sure there is no rust or pick up galling marks on the interior surface of the galleries (mirrors and light etc). Then pick the smallest measuring cam follower dia and try it in each cf gallery trying to get a feel which (if any) it will fit, and write down which other gallery diameters shows a chance of accepting it with a modicum of reducing the dia on the others, and try each follower individually, across the block.

You only have a 1 thou and a tenth of a thou range from top to bottom, making them all the smallest dia will reduce your options as to quality of fit, you cannot put material back into the block diameters. If a small amount of further wear gives you a tapping follower with excess play it's hard to remedy without lots of work. 

Mick Richards

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

We found the drain hole in the side of the Newman follower had a slight burr that caused tightening when installed.  A light de burr with a fine carborundum stone removed the burr and improved the fit.   

[Adrian Fuller]

All cam followers now sorted between. 0.9361 and 0.9364. One of the new Newman followers was 0.9361 when the black coating was removed with scotchbright and thinners. 

Cylinder head next, so quick question do I apply wellseal to all the block face including liner? And then the upper side of the gasket? 

 

Again thanks in advance. 

Adrian

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

3 minutes ago, Adrian Fuller said:

All cam followers now sorted between. 0.9361 and 0.9364. One of the new Newman followers was 0.9361 when the black coating was removed with scotchbright and thinners. 

Cylinder head next, so quick question do I apply wellseal to all the block face including liner? And then the upper side of the gasket? 

 

Again thanks in advance. 

Adrian

We applied Wellseal to block top surface but not on the liner top surfaces where the gasket touches.  Theory is the gasket will not attach itself to the liners so reducing chance of lifting liners when gasket is subsequently replaced.   Again we applied Wellseal to top surface of gasket surface.

 

[Adrian Fuller]

All ready to fit the cylinder head but have just been advised that I should use RTV sealant on the pushrod tubes top and bottom as they are prone to leaking. Has anyone else used this and any recommended brands?. Also just checking that head gasket goes on with raised profile to the block. 

 

Thanks again in advance

[stuart]

37 minutes ago, Adrian Fuller said:

All ready to fit the cylinder head but have just been advised that I should use RTV sealant on the pushrod tubes top and bottom as they are prone to leaking. Has anyone else used this and any recommended brands?. Also just checking that head gasket goes on with raised profile to the block. 

 

Thanks again in advance

Dont use RTV else you`ll end up with it in the oil and possibly blocking a vital oil way.

Stuart.

[Ian Vincent]

I fitted my head gasket with the flat face uppermost but I have seen both so I don't think there is a 'Right' way.

Rgds Ian

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Triumph Service Book says smooth side down.

Peter W

[Adrian Fuller]

On 12/20/2020 at 10:26 PM, Lebro said:

Did the oil pressure test this morning no leaks from gallery plug, so that's sorted.

Fitted the flywheel, & clutch, then decided to fit the Wosp starter motor to the engine temporarily to see where the pinion engaged on the ring gear.

  

Well, I'm glad I did, because, although it has been working fine for a few years now, the engagement is not very good:

    Spanner is holding the pinion at full throw

A friend of mine found the same with his Wosp starter when he first fitted it to his Alpine engine. Wosp were very good, & sent him a longer pinion which sorted the problem. I emailed Wosp earlier this evening with a description of what I had found, along with the photo above, & some measurements.

Guess what I got a reply, asking for more details at around 10 o'clock. that's service for you ! Hopefully it can be resolved with a new pinion, otherwise I may reduce the thickness of the mounting plate by 3 or 4 mm.

Anyway, back to the main topic, I used a couple of long studs to help align the gearbox, although it is much easier to do when out of the car

      

And then popped the whole thing back into the car

Well, yes it was not quite that simple, there was a lot of raising, lowering, (swearing), etc.

All bolted up on it's mountings, ready for more fun tomorrow.

Bob.

I have just inserted was starter, see photo, although not quite engaged across the entire starter ring ir is only 2-3mm shy is this acceptable or should I be going back to supplier/wasp. 

As always comments great fully received. 

Adrian

[Lebro]

 Wosp did replace my whole motor for a newer version, & that had better overlap with the ring gear, same as yours I would say, so I would not worry.

Bob

[Adrian Fuller]

On 10/13/2021 at 1:09 PM, trchris said:

 

 

 

 Bob

Any reason for using Westway 20W50 semi-synthetic over their mineral grade equivalent? 

Chris

Hi all

I am starting to think about which oil to use for my fully rebuilt engine and note westway do a SAE 30 running in oil. I doubt the cat will get back on the road within the next couple of years so am wondering if I should be using the esrway semi synthetic or running in oil as it will be in the engine for quite some time. 

Thanks in advance for your views.

Adrian

[Bfg]

I was lead to understand that synthetic oil is not good for running-in classic engines, as it's in effect too slippery ..so things like rings in their bores and plain bearings tend not to bed together.  Perhaps others may know more definitively.?

Pete 

[Adrian Fuller]

8 hours ago, Bfg said:

I was lead to understand that synthetic oil is not good for running-in classic engines, as it's in effect too slippery ..so things like rings in their bores and plain bearings tend not to bed together.  Perhaps others may know more definitively.?

Pete 

I am hopefully going to sort out oil this weekend, what are anybodies thought on semi synthetic or mineral oil or running in oil for a newly rebuild engine? 

As always thanks for any views. 

Adrian

[stuart]

For a 4 cylinder use a cheap oil for running in first few hundred then change to a good quality 20.50, like this https://www.classic-oils.net/Classic-Oils-Heritage-20W50

synthetic will leak on 4 cylinder engines so dont bother, I know people use it in 6cylinder though.

Stuart.

[DavidBee]

8 hours ago, stuart said:

synthetic will leak on 4 cylinder engines so dont bother, I know people use it in 6cylinder though. Stuart.

Stuart, hi! Question for you: and what about semi-synthetic in 4-cylinder TRs?

Ciao,

  David

[Motorsport Mickey]

I'm staying out of this, I'm far too radical.

Mick Richards

[DavidBee]

Just now, Motorsport Mickey said:

I'm staying out of this, I'm far too radical.

Mick Richards

Mick, I know engine oil has a long history in this Forum, just asking. And besides, why are you "staying out of this"?

Ciao,

  David

[Motorsport Mickey]

Just now, DavidBee said:

Mick, I know engine oil has a long history in this Forum, just asking. And besides, why are you "staying out of this"?

Ciao,

  David

Because a little like the Irishman who when asked how to get to a place replied "well...I wouldn't start from here" !

Adrian has rebuilt his engine and lovingly covered all the important surfaces with oil or engine build paste, cam followers lubed with break in paste, cam follower lobes covered with the same paste. Engine liners lubed with oil or engine build paste, every surface covered with products helpful for the breaking in and preservation of machined surfaces...and the car after initial starting will not be used for about 2 years. So all lubrication and preservative will be wiped from surfaces or will drip off, that's not an ideal situation.

Components that run close tolerances will have the chance to partially seize and the natural heating and cooling of the engine within the garage will allow condensation to form inside the engine. Regular starting of the engine to boil off condensation can go some way but as I say it's not ideal.

I would seal the engine up in every airway into it (tape or clingfilm) and leave the starting of it until it is installed in the car ready to go. Oh...and I think Stuart is on the money for oils to be used. 

So, that may not fit in with what people think but it's what I would do.

Mick Richards