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Rear Hub failure imminent?


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1 hour ago, stuart said:

TBH if you want better hubs fit the Quaife ones from Dennis Vessey and yes as he re-used the stub I would be changing it before going any further!

Are those CV joints? I'm curious why there seems to be such enthusiasm for CV joints as my understanding is that they were designed for the use case where the movement has more degrees of freedom than the TR IRS. Seems to me that a sliding joint, upgraded with ball bearings possibly, is a better engineering option. Like the Datsun 120 had!

BTW I love Quaife's engineering and support for old vehicles. I have one of their LSDs and it's a charm on slippery corners :D

JC

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6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Are those CV joints? I'm curious why there seems to be such enthusiasm for CV joints as my understanding is that they were designed for the use case where the movement has more degrees of freedom than the TR IRS. Seems to me that a sliding joint, upgraded with ball bearings possibly, is a better engineering option. Like the Datsun 120 had!

BTW I love Quaife's engineering and support for old vehicles. I have one of their LSDs and it's a charm on slippery corners :D

JC

No theyre like this http://www.vessey-classic-car-services.co.uk/triumph-tr-rear-hubs.htm#.X4luLe17nGg match with uprated drive shafts, you`ll not break them, Its what the race car boys use.

Stuart.

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23 minutes ago, stuart said:

No theyre like this http://www.vessey-classic-car-services.co.uk/triumph-tr-rear-hubs.htm#.X4luLe17nGg match with uprated drive shafts, you`ll not break them, Its what the race car boys use.

Stuart.

Hi JC,

I have had Lamora CV drive shaft joints for nearly 10 years and when I first fitted them and drove up my road the difference was felt straight away. You could feel the rear end of the car responding to the road surface in a way which it never did before and give a much better ride. The suspension wind up had gone along with the sliding spline lock up. The Lamora type are based on VW parts and are much bigger in size, I don't think that the stub axle will break unlike the OE GKN types? They are rated at 250 bhp!

Bruce.

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1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Like the Datsun 120 had!

Some PO fitted Datsun 180B half shafts to my TR well before the mid '90's and I've had no problems over the years. The home made modification included grease nipples for the U/J's and sliding shafts , so regular maintenance is no problem. I didn't think much of it when I bought the car but I thank the PO for it now.

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19 hours ago, Mike C said:

Some PO fitted Datsun 180B half shafts to my TR well before the mid '90's and I've had no problems over the years. The home made modification included grease nipples for the U/J's and sliding shafts , so regular maintenance is no problem. I didn't think much of it when I bought the car but I thank the PO for it now.

Not a straight forward modification though, they have long fitted this mod on Stags but it requires the driveshaft ends changing on the diff side to suit the Stag, which also requires "Frankendrive" different UJ sizing to work. I had found maybe the last Datsun 180B in the UK just entering a scrapyard about 7 or 8 years ago when considering how to "fail proof" my Stag drive shafts, and avoid the carnage a hub or rear stub axle failure would cause. Then I discovered the CCD driveshaft and new hubs and went for them instead, they fit easily and the ride difference is remarkable...oh, I donated the contact details for the Datsun to another worthy Stag owner who didn't mind the extra work. 

Mick Richards 

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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I'm with Mickey - fitted the CCD drive shafts first to the 6 and then to the Stag.

They make a big difference to the ride. The difference on the 6 was more marked than the Stag, even though the 6 had uprated driveshafts already.

So much more smooth and planted delivering power on wide, sweeping bends. As well as the added security of a modern hub.

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6 minutes ago, Andy Moltu said:

I'm with Mickey - fitted the CCD drive shafts first to the 6 and then to the Stag.

They make a big difference to the ride. The difference on the 6 was more marked than the Stag, even though the 6 had uprated driveshafts already.

So much more smooth and planted delivering power on wide, sweeping bends. As well as the added security of a modern hub.

+2

I was amazed by how much the CCD driveshafts improved the ride and handling of my TR6. Much more supple.

Nigel

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And should add, false economy, I didn't fit the CCD hubs at the same time. After Stuart's advice, I'm going to fit either CCD or Quaife hubs soon, sounds like a little winter project.

Nigel

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In the spirit of playing Devil's Advocate and also to make people aware that all is not always rosy, here is my experience with CDD CV shafts: 

CDD's customer service was brilliant, Alasdair sent me a replacement set immediately, even though I had purchased from Rimmers. The first replacement shaft I checked had even worse play than the one shown so I rejected them. I am now running CDD's uprated sliding spline shafts & hubs and am happy with them. I would point out that the CV shaft shown was fitted by a professional mechanic and correctly torqued.

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12 hours ago, Mike C said:

Datsun 180B

Thanks Mike, I stand corrected. That's what I have fitted. Made a huge difference to the handling, particularly out of corners.

John

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3 hours ago, JohnC said:

Thanks Mike, I stand corrected. That's what I have fitted. Made a huge difference to the handling, particularly out of corners.

John

Huge. I've never had the back end twich others talk about, they're easy to maintain and look like lasting forever. But technology seems to have overtaken these local garage developments. 

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5 hours ago, Mike C said:

But technology seems to have overtaken these local garage developments.

Not to mention that the donor car may now be a collector's item :rolleyes:

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It’s not really the back end twitch that is the noticeable benefit if the CV jointed shafts it is the smoother power delivery powering out of bends. The “Teflon” coated splined shafts had already rid my 6 of the twitch but I was genuinely surprised how much difference the CV jointed shafts made.

No doubt the CVs will wear out in the same way UJs do. I think the inners are Alfa GTV ones, but not worked out what the outer are.

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Never had any problems with power delivery out of bends with my uj-shafts. Whereas the CV-shafts are not that problem-free, many german drivers would confirm that. In my opinion the UJ-shaft works very fine as long nothing is worned out. I would go for reinforced shafts and joins combined with the Quaife-hubs.

18 minutes ago, Andy Moltu said:

It’s not really the back end twitch that is the noticeable benefit if the CV jointed shafts it is the smoother power delivery powering out of bends. The “Teflon” coated splined shafts had already rid my 6 of the twitch but I was genuinely surprised how much difference the CV jointed shafts made.

No doubt the CVs will wear out in the same way UJs do. I think the inners are Alfa GTV ones, but not worked out what the outer are.

 

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23 hours ago, Mike C said:

Some PO fitted Datsun 180B half shafts to my TR well before the mid '90's and I've had no problems over the years. The home made modification included grease nipples for the U/J's and sliding shafts , so regular maintenance is no problem. I didn't think much of it when I bought the car but I thank the PO for it now.

My contact in Aussie land when I researched the Datsun 180B driveshaft mods was Greg Tunstall  at Greg Tunstall Mechanical.

Mick Richards
 

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4 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

My contact in Aussie land when I researched the Datsun 180B driveshaft mods was Greg Tunstall  at Greg Tunstall Mechanical.

Mick Richards

Yup, that's who mine came from.

It's concerning that many of these recommendations are for individuals. Like our cars, we wear out. Unfortunately, for our cars and our families, we can't be rebuilt (unless your name is Steve). It's great to read recommendations for technical solutions, whether they be CV joints or those tasty looking items David Vessey supplies ("If you need to ask, you can't afford them"?). Thanks Stuart and others for the pointers to solutions that don't require a skilled machinist, or skilled mechanic at least, to apply.

JC

Edited by JohnC
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2 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

My contact in Aussie land when I researched the Datsun 180B driveshaft mods was Greg Tunstall  at Greg Tunstall Mechanical.

Mick Richards
 

Thanks Mick. Greg is well known to TSOA members out here. My 180B conversion would have probably been done by Greg or  Butler and Rudd in NSW- who built up my engine and running gear  . Greg is still in business but Butler and Rudd are gone- as John observed the individuals with lifelong experience in TR's, who knew each car they worked on as an individual machine,  are retiring and we're being forced to install off the shelf components- but at least we can keep our cars running.

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On 10/15/2020 at 5:08 PM, John L said:

I have one these apart at the moment, and I feel there is real design /drawing problem with the radius where the bearing fits, there should be much more of a radius at this point, the bearing has plenty cut away on it to accomadate a larger radius on the hub.

If you had this much undercut/minimum chamfer on a crankshaft it would surely break there.

I know they are not failing that often, but engineering wise it leaves a bit to be desired.

John

IMG_E3068 (2).JPG

IMG_E3070 (2).JPG

Hi John,

it would be normal to have a small radius (Convex or concave) in that corner. However it does depend n the force that it is exposed to.

Most pf the components are subject to a shear stress and torsional (twisting stress) -  A radius ion that corner would not do much good.

On the crack there is a lot of fatigue tensile stress due to flexing going on - the radius now comes into play and is very very important.

 

Roger

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Nigel if you have  CDD CV driveshafts which is what i thought you said you have then the only hubs that you can fit to them are the CDD hubs. Quaiffe hubs will not fit the CDD CV driveshafts as i have already been there done that and wear the tshirt the driveshafts they make are completely different assembly and bolt on fitting so cannot fit at all= i bought my Quaiffe hubs years ago and wanted to add cv shafts from CDD but after contacting them they said it would be best for me to sell the Quaiffe hubs and buy their hub/cv shaft assembly - i declined and have the uprated shafts from elsewhere that most people on this forum already know about.

 

 

Michael 

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46 minutes ago, michaeldavis39 said:

Nigel if you have  CDD CV driveshafts which is what i thought you said you have then the only hubs that you can fit to them are the CDD hubs. Quaiffe hubs will not fit the CDD CV driveshafts as i have already been there done that and wear the tshirt the driveshafts they make are completely different assembly and bolt on fitting so cannot fit at all= i bought my Quaiffe hubs years ago and wanted to add cv shafts from CDD but after contacting them they said it would be best for me to sell the Quaiffe hubs and buy their hub/cv shaft assembly - i declined and have the uprated shafts from elsewhere that most people on this forum already know about.

 

 

Michael 

Thank you Michael. I do indeed have CDD shafts, and I'm very impressed with them. So I will be back to Alasdair at CDD for a pair of his hubs, plus his updated studs.

Nigel

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I have the same drive shafts and hubs Greg Tunstall uses, supplied by David Clark in Sydney.  Yes the difference is huge but we aren't comparing apples with apples, the old axles were worn. Its a bit like sidescreen TR owners who rave about their rack and pinion steering, invariably they are comparing their new r&p with a worn out worm and peg. Worm and peg is very good when in good condition and maintained. The benefit of r&p is much reduced.

However spline lock up and release is a characteristic of sliding splines so if you are giving the car a nudge along it will happen. I only experienced it once in the year or so I had the old shafts, I pushed it a bit hard out of a roundabout.

The smoothness and reduced noise from the rear end is also a big benefit of the CV axles.

Edited by John McCormack
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20 hours ago, Mike C said:

Thanks Mick. Greg is well known to TSOA members out here. My 180B conversion would have probably been done by Greg or  Butler and Rudd in NSW- who built up my engine and running gear  . Greg is still in business but Butler and Rudd are gone- as John observed the individuals with lifelong experience in TR's, who knew each car they worked on as an individual machine,  are retiring and we're being forced to install off the shelf components- but at least we can keep our cars running.

Apologies for the thread digression - I think Mike (the machinist/artist behind much of Eric Rudd and team's wonderful work) is still to be seen around Geoff Morse's Peninsula SportsCars. And Richard (also at PS) isn't too shabby when it comes to remembering the idiosyncrasies of individual cars! But they do accept MGs as well...and Astons, Jags, Sunbeams...what is the world coming to?

JC

Edited by JohnC
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1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Apologies for the thread digression - I think Mike (the machinist/artist behind much of Eric Rudd and team's wonderful work) is still to be seen around Geoff Morse's Peninsula SportsCars. And Richard (also at PS) isn't too shabby when it comes to remembering the idiosyncrasies of individual cars! But they do accept MGs as well...and Astons, Jags, Sunbeams...what is the world coming to?

JC

Thanks John . Good to know they're still around if I get into major problems with my TR's engine/drive train. There are quite a few things that have been changed from what was in the Brown Bible.

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