Hamish Posted October 8, 2020 Report Share Posted October 8, 2020 Hi folks today I attended a very good friend and ex colleague funeral. I went in the TR3a as we had some good times in it and his wife liked the touch. but for the first time and out of the blue. The starter ( high torque version) whizzed and there was a high pitch graunching noise whilst turning. But appears no engagement to the flywheel. this happens multiple times and I either bumped started on a slope when rocking in gear didn’t work. I have yet to pull the starter (maybe at weekend if I can face it) to see if it’s the starter cog. but I think I have picked up on here that these car always stops in the same place thus the flywheel starter ring can suffer in one spot? over past couple years the gearbox has been out a few times and this ring never gave cause for concern, nothing obvious. I really don’t want to remove the box again. your thoughts, wise words and pointer please. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 8, 2020 Report Share Posted October 8, 2020 Hi Hamish the ring could stop in one of four places - TDC of 4 pots. So remove the starter and turn the crank and look at all positions. The Starter cog goes in from the front face - so any damage should be viewable. Good luck Roger - I wonder how many TR's die at a funeral. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ntc Posted October 8, 2020 Report Share Posted October 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Hamish said: Hi folks today I attended a very good friend and ex colleague funeral. I went in the TR3a as we had some good times in it and his wife liked the touch. but for the first time and out of the blue. The starter ( high torque version) whizzed and there was a high pitch graunching noise whilst turning. But appears no engagement to the flywheel. this happens multiple times and I either bumped started on a slope when rocking in gear didn’t work. I have yet to pull the starter (maybe at weekend if I can face it) to see if it’s the starter cog. but I think I have picked up on here that these car always stops in the same place thus the flywheel starter ring can suffer in one spot? over past couple years the gearbox has been out a few times and this ring never gave cause for concern, nothing obvious. I really don’t want to remove the box again. your thoughts, wise words and pointer please. Incorrect ring gear or starter fitted Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted October 8, 2020 Report Share Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) I don't think that should be possible. As I understand it, the pre-engage solenoid has to operate to mate the gears before power gets applied to the starter at the end of solenoid travel. Surely, if the motor is running before the gears are engaged either something must be deranged in the starter motor so the contact is being made too soon, or the position of the motor relative to the ring-gear isn't right. Edited October 8, 2020 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ntc Posted October 8, 2020 Report Share Posted October 8, 2020 14 minutes ago, RobH said: I don't think that should be possible. As I understand it, the pre-engage solenoid has to operate to mate the gears before power gets applied to the starter at the end of solenoid travel. Surely, if the motor is running before the gears are engaged either something must be deranged in the starter motor so the contact is being made too soon, or the position of the motor relative to the ring-gear isn't right. It can if the ring gear is fitted the wrong way round Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted October 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2020 Hi folks i have checked and the hi torque starter was fitted in Oct 2016 and no hint of an issue until today. its the original flywheel and bolt on starter ring. Despite being drilled to take the diaphragm clutch. the pic is when I first removed the gearbox in dec 2017 so the starter is not fitted properly here. And a year of use. I suppose I’ll know more when I get to removing the starter. When time allows. thanks for pointers so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 8, 2020 Report Share Posted October 8, 2020 28 minutes ago, RobH said: I don't think that should be possible. As I understand it, the pre-engage solenoid has to operate to mate the gears before power gets applied to the starter at the end of solenoid travel. Surely, if the motor is running before the gears are engaged either something must be deranged in the starter motor so the contact is being made too soon, or the position of the motor relative to the ring-gear isn't right. Considering Rob's comments then the obvious thing is to see if the drive dog is still on the end of the SM. I can't believe that you have stripped the ring gear in four places. I hope the disaster is clear cut and easily fixable. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 9 hours ago, RogerH said: Considering Rob's comments then the obvious thing is to see if the drive dog is still on the end of the SM. I can't believe that you have stripped the ring gear in four places. I hope the disaster is clear cut and easily fixable. Roger +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 Just to be clear, the flywheel usually ends up in one of two places when engine is stopped (not four) Triumph thought of this, & on the 4 pot engines they provide a second dowel hole in the flywheel to allow you to attach it to the crank 90° round. thus presenting two virtually unused areas of ring gear to the starter. I made use of this feature when I assembled my car, the drawback being possible "unbalancing" of the assembly. I think the problem will lie in the starter motor Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted October 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 Thanks guys i’ll take pictures when I get the SM out. it’ll make life awkward doing the work!!! but I’ll keep my fingers crossed for the simplest and cheapest remedy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 52 minutes ago, Lebro said: Just to be clear, the flywheel usually ends up in one of two places when engine is stopped (not four) Triumph thought of this, & on the 4 pot engines they provide a second dowel hole in the flywheel to allow you to attach it to the crank 90° round. thus presenting two virtually unused areas of ring gear to the starter. I made use of this feature when I assembled my car, the drawback being possible "unbalancing" of the assembly. I think the problem will lie in the starter motor Bob. Hi Bob, what stops it in two positions and not four. I don't doubt your wisdom but I thought it was the compression stroke and there are four of them. What am I missing.? Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) The crank plane is flat Roger so the TDCs occur in pairs 180 degrees apart. Edited October 9, 2020 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 Indeed so. Thanks for that Rob. So either 1&4 or 2&3 can be at the compression stroke but the flywheel can only be at the two places. Every day is a school day. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 Hopefully you wont find this inside your starter motor, Theyre not as bomb proof as the originals. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 Hi Stuart, you may need more than one tube of JBWeld to sort that Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 37 minutes ago, RogerH said: Hi Stuart, you may need more than one tube of JBWeld to sort that Roger Yep definite bin job! Sturt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Harris Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 The set screws that hold the end plate on tend to come loose on these high torque starters and need loctite to keep them together. Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted October 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 Wow Stuart that is a mess. I presume that one didn’t even spin !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 16 hours ago, Hamish said: Wow Stuart that is a mess. I presume that one didn’t even spin !! It worked up until it spun with a graunching noise and then it didnt! The commutator disintegrated as we reckoned one of the segments came loose and caught on the brush frame and just wiped the rest out Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted October 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) Hi Folks i have an update for you. But first..... since fitting the starter motor I have changed the exhaust and manifold. Guess what the starter wouldn’t come out past the exhaust carbs and steering column nor out the bottom past the exhaust / chassis. so carbs and manifold off So it dropped out the bottom. cut a long story short the broken bits are out of the bell housing via a magnet. it appears That the cog and starter ring are all good, but Looks like there should be a retaining ring / circlip Behind the starter cog. the shaft flies out but without this clip the cog can move back on the shaft. I hope I can get this simple part to fix it. of the Broken bits I don’t know what the little square parts are they have a groove in them like they would take a pin if it was whole. But can’t see where they are from . The curved bit looks like it the cog retaining ring. on to the starter motor people on Monday. Edited October 10, 2020 by Hamish Pic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ralph Whitaker Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 The square bits look to me like the remains of an earlier inertia starter bendix. Ralph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted October 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 My gearbox has been out of the car a few time since the starter was swapped. So I don’t think it’s residual debris. looking at pictures on line of the new units could be a collar from the front from over the retaining clip ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RAHTR4 Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 Hamish, I think you have identified the problem. Below is a photo of a new and unused Hi-Torque starter which has the same two collars. Regards, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted October 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 16 minutes ago, RAHTR4 said: Hamish, I think you have identified the problem. Below is a photo of a new and unused Hi-Torque starter which has the same two collars. Regards, Richard Richard thats great thank you. can you answer a question for me? is the cog fixed on the shaft ?Mine - currently- slides back down the shaft thus I think preventing it engaging with the flywheel ring. I think I am missing the locking parts front and back of the starter cog. With a spring inside the cog in the shaft. thanks H Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RAHTR4 Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 Hi Hamish, This is from memory as it is a long time since I looked at the motor, however I am pretty sure that gear is fixed to the shaft and the shaft moves out of the body in order to engage with the flywheel. Regards, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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