Starter non engagement 3a

[Hamish]

Hi folks

today I attended a very good friend and ex colleague funeral. I went in the TR3a as we had some good times in it and his wife liked the touch. 
 

but for the first time and out of the blue. The starter ( high torque version) whizzed and there was a high pitch graunching noise whilst turning. But appears no engagement to the flywheel.

this happens multiple times and I either bumped started on a slope when rocking in gear didn’t work. 
 

I have yet to pull the starter (maybe at weekend if I can face it) to see if it’s the starter cog.

but I think I have picked up on here that these car always stops in the same place thus the flywheel starter ring can suffer in one spot?

over past couple years the gearbox has been out a few times and this ring never gave cause for concern, nothing obvious. 
 

I really don’t want to remove the box again. 
 

your thoughts, wise words and pointer please.

[RogerH]

Hi Hamish

the ring could stop in one of four places - TDC of 4 pots.

So remove the starter and turn the crank and look at all positions.

The Starter cog goes in from the front face - so any damage should be viewable.

 

Good luck

Roger   - I wonder how many TR's die at a funeral.

[ntc]

1 hour ago, Hamish said:

Hi folks

today I attended a very good friend and ex colleague funeral. I went in the TR3a as we had some good times in it and his wife liked the touch. 
 

but for the first time and out of the blue. The starter ( high torque version) whizzed and there was a high pitch graunching noise whilst turning. But appears no engagement to the flywheel.

this happens multiple times and I either bumped started on a slope when rocking in gear didn’t work. 
 

I have yet to pull the starter (maybe at weekend if I can face it) to see if it’s the starter cog.

but I think I have picked up on here that these car always stops in the same place thus the flywheel starter ring can suffer in one spot?

over past couple years the gearbox has been out a few times and this ring never gave cause for concern, nothing obvious. 
 

I really don’t want to remove the box again. 
 

your thoughts, wise words and pointer please.

Incorrect ring gear or starter fitted 

[RobH]

I don't think that should be possible. As I understand it, the pre-engage solenoid has to operate to mate the gears before power gets applied to the starter at the end of solenoid travel. Surely, if the motor is running before the gears are engaged either something must be deranged in the starter motor so the contact is being made too soon, or the position of the motor relative to the ring-gear isn't right.  

Edited October 8, 2020 by RobH

[ntc]

14 minutes ago, RobH said:

I don't think that should be possible. As I understand it, the pre-engage solenoid has to operate to mate the gears before power gets applied to the starter at the end of solenoid travel. Surely, if the motor is running before the gears are engaged either something must be deranged in the starter motor so the contact is being made too soon, or the position of the motor relative to the ring-gear isn't right.  

It can if the ring gear is fitted the wrong way round 

[Hamish]

Hi folks

i have checked and the hi torque starter was fitted in Oct 2016 and no hint of an issue until today.

its the original flywheel and bolt on starter ring. Despite being drilled to take the diaphragm clutch.

the pic is when I first removed the gearbox in dec 2017 so the starter is not fitted properly here. And a year of use.

I suppose I’ll know more when I get to removing the starter. When time allows. 
thanks for pointers so far.

[RogerH]

28 minutes ago, RobH said:

I don't think that should be possible. As I understand it, the pre-engage solenoid has to operate to mate the gears before power gets applied to the starter at the end of solenoid travel. Surely, if the motor is running before the gears are engaged either something must be deranged in the starter motor so the contact is being made too soon, or the position of the motor relative to the ring-gear isn't right.  

Considering Rob's comments then the obvious thing is to see if the drive dog is still on the end of the SM.

I can't believe that you have stripped the ring gear in four places.

I hope the disaster is clear cut and easily fixable.

 

Roger

[Ian Vincent]

9 hours ago, RogerH said:

Considering Rob's comments then the obvious thing is to see if the drive dog is still on the end of the SM.

I can't believe that you have stripped the ring gear in four places.

I hope the disaster is clear cut and easily fixable.

 

Roger

+1

[Lebro]

Just to be clear, the flywheel usually ends up in one of two places when engine is stopped (not four) Triumph thought of this, & on the 4 pot engines they provide a second dowel hole in the flywheel to allow you to attach it to the crank 90° round. thus presenting two virtually unused areas of ring gear to the starter.

I made use of this feature when I assembled my car, the drawback being possible "unbalancing" of the assembly.

I think the problem will lie in the starter motor

Bob.

[Hamish]

Thanks guys

i’ll take pictures when I get the SM out. 
 

it’ll make life awkward doing the work!!! but I’ll keep my fingers crossed for the simplest and cheapest remedy.

[RogerH]

52 minutes ago, Lebro said:

Just to be clear, the flywheel usually ends up in one of two places when engine is stopped (not four) Triumph thought of this, & on the 4 pot engines they provide a second dowel hole in the flywheel to allow you to attach it to the crank 90° round. thus presenting two virtually unused areas of ring gear to the starter.

I made use of this feature when I assembled my car, the drawback being possible "unbalancing" of the assembly.

I think the problem will lie in the starter motor

Bob.

Hi Bob,

what stops it in two positions and not four. 

I don't doubt your wisdom but I thought it was the compression stroke and there are four of them.

What am I missing.?

 

Roger

[RobH]

The crank plane is flat Roger so the TDCs occur in pairs 180 degrees apart. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by RobH

[RogerH]

Indeed so.  Thanks for that Rob.

So either 1&4 or 2&3 can be at the compression stroke but the flywheel can only be at the two places.

 

Every day is a school day.

  Roger

[stuart]

Hopefully you wont find this inside your starter motor, Theyre not as bomb proof as the originals.

Stuart.

[RogerH]

Hi Stuart,

you may need more than one tube of JBWeld to sort that

 

Roger

[stuart]

37 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Hi Stuart,

you may need more than one tube of JBWeld to sort that

 

Roger

Yep definite bin job!

Sturt.

[Graham Harris]

The set screws that hold the end plate on tend to come loose on these high torque starters and need loctite to keep them together.

 

Graham

[Hamish]

Wow Stuart that is a mess. I presume that one didn’t even spin !!

[stuart]

16 hours ago, Hamish said:

Wow Stuart that is a mess. I presume that one didn’t even spin !!

It worked up until it spun with a graunching noise and then it didnt! The commutator disintegrated as we reckoned one of the segments came loose and caught on the brush frame and just wiped the rest out

Stuart.

[Hamish]

Hi Folks

i have an update for you. 
But first.....
since fitting the starter motor I have changed the exhaust and manifold. Guess what the starter wouldn’t come out past the exhaust carbs and steering column nor out the bottom past the exhaust / chassis.

so carbs and manifold off  So it dropped out the bottom.

cut a long story short the broken bits are out of the bell housing via a magnet.

 

it appears That the cog and starter ring are all good,  but Looks like there should be a retaining ring / circlip Behind the starter cog. 
the shaft flies out but without this clip the cog can move back on the shaft. 
 

I hope I can get this simple part to fix it. 
 

of the Broken bits I don’t know what the little square parts are they have a groove in them like they would take a pin if it was whole. But can’t see where they are from . The curved bit looks like it the cog retaining ring.

on to the starter motor people on Monday. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Hamish
Pic

[Ralph Whitaker]

The square bits look to me like the remains of an earlier inertia starter bendix.

Ralph

 

[Hamish]

My gearbox has been out of the car a few time since the starter was swapped. So I don’t think it’s residual debris. 
 

looking at pictures on line of the new units could be a collar from the front from over the retaining clip ?

[RAHTR4]

Hamish,

I think you have identified the problem.

Below is a photo of a new and unused Hi-Torque starter which has the same two collars. 

Regards, Richard

[Hamish]

16 minutes ago, RAHTR4 said:

Hamish,

I think you have identified the problem.

Below is a photo of a new and unused Hi-Torque starter which has the same two collars. 

Regards, Richard

Richard

thats great thank you. 
 

can you answer a question for me?

is the cog fixed on the shaft ?Mine - currently- slides back down the shaft thus I think preventing it engaging with the flywheel ring.

I think I am missing the locking parts front and back of the starter cog. With a spring inside the cog in the shaft.

 

thanks

H

[RAHTR4]

Hi Hamish,

This is from memory as it is a long time since I looked at the motor, however I am pretty sure that gear is fixed to the shaft and the shaft moves out of the body in order to engage with the flywheel.

Regards, Richard