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Just now, Motorsport Mickey said:

Jochem,

Valvoline VR1 10W60 ZDDP: 1300

This VR1 level is I believe the US version mix and is still available there, the European mix which you are likely to be buying does not advertise or show the ZDDP figures ( or any I can find). 

Mick Richards.

 

 

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2 hours ago, JochemsTR said:

Castrol Edge Titanium FSt 10W60 ZDDP: 1080

Liqui Moly Synthoil Race Tech GT1 10W60 ZDDP: 1200

Mobil1 Peak Life 5W50 ZDDP: 1100

Valvoline VR1 10W60 ZDDP: 1300

To add to Jochem's list, available here in Oz:

Penrite HPR30 20W60 (mineral) Zinc 0.153% by mass/ approx 1600ppm

Penrite HPR 15 15W-60 (synthetic) Zinc 0.108% by mass

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8 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Duplicate.

 

 

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4 hours ago, JochemsTR said:

in 2016 I did some research on synthetic oil.

Castrol Edge Titanium FSt 10W60 ZDDP: 1080

Liqui Moly Synthoil Race Tech GT1 10W60 ZDDP: 1200

Mobil1 Peak Life 5W50 ZDDP: 1100

Valvoline VR1 10W60 ZDDP: 1300

I currently drive with Castrol Edge Titanium.

Jochem

Jochem,

If those concentrations are expressed as "ppm ZDDP" rather than "ppm Zn  as ZDDP" the  level may be 10 times lower. Oils were for deacades described  as "Zn as ZDDP" and our TR engines were designed with that in mind. But  ZDDP poisons cataytic converters so companise  lowered its level substantially and hid the change by changing the units to "ppm ZDDP"

It is very subtle. The work-around is to reject oils that are described as safe to use with catalytic converters.

That said, VR1 is regarded as a genuine high ZDDP oil. But if its level is now given  as "1300 ppm ZDDP" we may need to look deeper.

Peter

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2 hours ago, JohnC said:

To add to Jochem's list, available here in Oz:

Penrite HPR30 20W60 (mineral) Zinc 0.153% by mass/ approx 1600ppm

Penrite HPR 15 15W-60 (synthetic) Zinc 0.108% by mass

That  is the correct way of expressing the ZDDP level. 

Peter

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For newcomers, the 2017 thread where I identified and tried to explain the diffference between "Zn ppm as ZDDP" and "ppm ZDDP"

https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/64116-duckhams-is-back/

It is far simpler to reject classic oils that are stated to be safe with catalytic converters !!

Petr

 

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42 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Jochem,

If those concentrations are expressed as "ppm ZDDP" rather than "ppm Zn  as ZDDP" the  level may be 10 times lower. Oils were for deacades described  as "Zn as ZDDP" and our TR engines were designed with that in mind. But  ZDDP poisons cataytic converters so companise  lowered its level substantially and hid the change by changing the units to "ppm ZDDP"

Peter,

another example: Valvoline VR1 Racing 20W50 has Zn in PPM of 1200

Maybe it is clearer now...

My listings are no secrecy....

Jochem

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18 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

The catalyst compatible for the Triple QX is what they advertise on the link you posted, all I did was change it to capitals so it stood out.


The reason the oils had their Zinc levels dropped dramatically in their ZDDP was to stop catalyst failures in the modern cars starting to arrive on the scene in the 1990s onwards. It was rare to hear of camshaft and cam follower galling ( gouging) before this happened, the high level zinc ZDDP in oil was very effective in preventing it happening in wide cam follower engines with high pressures ( eg TR engines) and afterwards many engine shops were suspicious that the change in formulation could have had an adverse effect on it. Having an oil which is catalyst compatible means it’s likely got very low ( they describe it as being optimised) zinc levels in any ZDDP and possibly more susceptible to the described damage above. It also allows the oil companies to sell their same oil across many customers in the market.

Almost all oils now remove reference to ZDDP in their literature, if you can post your information here it would be useful.

thanks Mick Richards

Hi Mick,

Here is the analysis report: Triple QX 5W40.pdf

 

Here is the data sheet:TQX-SynPlus-FS-5W40.pdf

The engine oil that was available for Triumph engines in the 60's & early 70's had way less than 1000PPM Zn/ZDDP. Anybody got a spec sheet to disprove this statement?
A lot of the "classic" oils are group 1 oils with group 2+ prices. Would not use in a lawn mower. LOL.

Have fun,

Iain.

 

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7 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Jochem,

If those concentrations are expressed as "ppm ZDDP" rather than "ppm Zn  as ZDDP" the  level may be 10 times lower. Oils were for deacades described  as "Zn as ZDDP" and our TR engines were designed with that in mind. But  ZDDP poisons cataytic converters so companise  lowered its level substantially and hid the change by changing the units to "ppm ZDDP"

It is very subtle. The work-around is to reject oils that are described as safe to use with catalytic converters.

That said, VR1 is regarded as a genuine high ZDDP oil. But if its level is now given  as "1300 ppm ZDDP" we may need to look deeper.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Do you have data showing the ZDDP/ZN of the oils available in the 60's and 70's? I have seen a few and way lower than today.

Thanks,

Iain.

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Sorry for my late forum return, I’m on holiday and suffering from no internet and only occasional phone signal.

Iain,

Thanks for the Millers oil Analysis information, they are well respected in the garage supply world, and if their sheet says the TX oil is 1080ppm Zinc it’s close enough for me.

As regards leg lifting oil companies selling specialist oils, 
Classic Oils charge £19.95 for 5 litres for their Heritage 20/50 with 1300ppm zinc by mass, which is less than the TX oils £21.03 charged by car parts 4 less etc. Looks like Classic Oils are missing a trick there.

Hampered as I am by internet unavailability ( this comes by courtesy of McDonald’s as I’m sat in their car park) I’m unable to research 1960s oil company oil specifications ( wife says it will involve me in disproportionate amount of pain and suffering).

But given subsequently In the early 2000s  there WAS a wholesale reduction in the oil companies ZDDP numbers, which HAD unarguably caused many catalyst deaths, from what you say it was all for naught !...They didn’t need to do it !...because their oils sold in the 1960s we’re delivering less ZDDP numbers than the newer “ optimised” oils they now offer do !

If they are not confused, I am !

If you can post whatever 1960s ( or thereabouts)  oil specs you have ( a la Millers analysis) or even an oil can photo showing it, would do. It might show us what you mean, In the meantime if anybody else can dig out these older oil specs I’d appreciate it.
 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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21 hours ago, SpitFireSIX said:

Hi Peter,

Do you have data showing the ZDDP/ZN of the oils available in the 60's and 70's? I have seen a few and way lower than today.

Thanks,

Iain.

In the 60s and 70s ZDDP was always expressed by convention as Zinc ppm. Now, without warning us, they have deserted conventional units and use ppm ZDDP. That means the actual level of the additive  can be 7 to 10 fold lower now than back then, for the same number.

Peter

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Hi,

 my understanding is that it is the Ph & not Zn that poisons the catalyst and modern xW40, xW50 & xW60 oils do not have to reduce the Ph/Zn levels.

I am also very interested in Zn/Ph levels for API SD-SG oils. I cannot back up my belief they were lower than 1000PPM at this time. Still searching... Somebody will find.

I always used 0W40FS M1 but moving to TQX now.
Here is a 2000 mile run on M1:acuoil.pdf
I had planned on doing a later 5000 mile run to compare but the car has been off the road for over a year! Maybe it's at 4K now..

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44 minutes ago, SpitFireSIX said:

Hi,

 my understanding is that it is the Ph & not Zn that poisons the catalyst and modern xW40, xW50 & xW60 oils do not have to reduce the Ph/Zn levels.

I am also very interested in Zn/Ph levels for API SD-SG oils. I cannot back up my belief they were lower than 1000PPM at this time. Still searching... Somebody will find.

I always used 0W40FS M1 but moving to TQX now.
Here is a 2000 mile run on M1:acuoil.pdf
I had planned on doing a later 5000 mile run to compare but the car has been off the road for over a year! Maybe it's at 4K now..

The P content of a classic oil with the correct ZDDP will rapidly poison a catalytic convertor, so all oils safe to use with cats must have low ZDDP.

A cat-safe oil labelled as .say. 2000 ppm ZDDP will have only 200-ish measured as classic oils were originally measured ( ppm Zn )

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7 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said:

The P content of a classic oil with the correct ZDDP will rapidly poison a catalytic convertor, so all oils safe to use with cats must have low ZDDP.

A cat-safe oil labelled as .say. 2000 ppm ZDDP will have only 200-ish measured as classic oils were originally measured ( ppm Zn )

Where did my Ph come from? I knew it didn't look right. Should have googled.

Shame.

Continue litmus go on.

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1 hour ago, SpitFireSIX said:

Hi,

 my understanding is that it is the Ph & not Zn that poisons the catalyst and modern xW40, xW50 & xW60 oils do not have to reduce the Ph/Zn levels.

I am also very interested in Zn/Ph levels for API SD-SG oils. I cannot back up my belief they were lower than 1000PPM at this time. Still searching... Somebody will find.

I always used 0W40FS M1 but moving to TQX now.
Here is a 2000 mile run on M1:acuoil.pdf
I had planned on doing a later 5000 mile run to compare but the car has been off the road for over a year! Maybe it's at 4K now..

Wrong quote! This one.

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12 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said:

The P content of a classic oil with the correct ZDDP will rapidly poison a catalytic convertor, so all oils safe to use with cats must have low ZDDP.

A cat-safe oil labelled as .say. 2000 ppm ZDDP will have only 200-ish measured as classic oils were originally measured ( ppm Zn )

Hi,

Not all API SN oils are "Cat safe", only xW30's and below viscosity must be. 

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On 10/6/2020 at 1:12 PM, JochemsTR said:

Peter,

another example: Valvoline VR1 Racing 20W50 has Zn in PPM of 1200

Maybe it is clearer now...

My listings are no secrecy....

Jochem

Jochem,

I have found the VR1 spec sheet and I can’t find any reference to Zn or Zinc numbers in ZDDP see attached

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-73741-valvoline-vr1-racing-20w-50-highly-refined-mineral-engine-oil.aspx?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzLiGn6uj7AIVB-ztCh3wewEsEAAYASAAEgKb0vD_BwE

Perhaps you could help me by posting the document which shows the Zinc by mass numbers in ZDDP in the VR1 you are reading off.

Mick Richards

 

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1 hour ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Jochem,

I have found the VR1 spec sheet and I can’t find any reference to Zn or Zinc numbers in ZDDP see attached

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-73741-valvoline-vr1-racing-20w-50-highly-refined-mineral-engine-oil.aspx?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzLiGn6uj7AIVB-ztCh3wewEsEAAYASAAEgKb0vD_BwE

Perhaps you could help me by posting the document which shows the Zinc by mass numbers in ZDDP in the VR1 you are reading off.

Mick Richards

 

https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/18bdee61-0a7e-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1

Another source 

https://www.valvoline.com/about-us/faq/racing-oil-faq

I think too much emphasis is being placed on zinc content. There are so many other variables. When I rebuilt my Mini about 3 years ago I telephoned and spoke directly to a Castrol technician. Due to the gearbox being in the sump, he actually advised me to use motorcycle oil, Castrol Power 1 20/50 multigrade which is around 1000 ppm zinc which he recommended to a friend who drives a Triumph Stag. Above this 1000 ppm there is no correlation between higher zinc / less wear and in fact 1400 is unnecessarily high.

There are so many variables. Cheap oil will have a tendancy to evaporate and burn more, throwing excess deposits including zinc into the cat. 

Other considerations is that Triumph cams and followers are not available, and we don’t know the manufacturing quality of Kent, Piper or Burton cams for instance. I don’t remember a classic engine lasting that long before a rebuild back in the day.

 

Edited by boxofbits
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18 minutes ago, boxofbits said:

Thanks for that, as the doc states 1400ppm Zinc and not suitable for cars with catalysts as we said.

But if you read the bottom line it states “only for products manufactured in Us or Canada. I’m trying to find a Europe VR1 product and it’s ZDDP content of Zinc, doesn’t seem to be available.

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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5 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Thanks for that, as the doc states 1400ppm Zinc and not suitable for cars with catalysts as we said.

But if you read the bottom line it states “only for products manufactured in Us or Canada. I’m trying to find a Europe VR1 product and it’s ZDDP content of Zinc, doesn’t seem to be available.

Mick Richards

I’ll take another look.

Edited by boxofbits
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11 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Thanks for that, as the doc states 1400ppm Zinc and not suitable for cars with catalysts as we said.

But if you read the bottom line it states “only for products manufactured in Us or Canada. I’m trying to find a Europe VR1 product and it’s ZDDP content of Zinc, doesn’t seem to be available.

Mick Richards

Mick

This is available from Amazon.co.uk and quoted in Sterling so I would think specifically made available for the UK Market and is high in zinc.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VALVOLINE-VR1-20w-Racing-Litres/dp/B0030H7GUW

btw I didn’t bother to search the actual ppm value but would assume without spending another 1/2 hour on the net that it’s the same spec as US, but I might be wrong there without checking!

Edited by boxofbits
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7 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Jochem,

I have found the VR1 spec sheet and I can’t find any reference to Zn or Zinc numbers in ZDDP see attached

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-73741-valvoline-vr1-racing-20w-50-highly-refined-mineral-engine-oil.aspx?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzLiGn6uj7AIVB-ztCh3wewEsEAAYASAAEgKb0vD_BwE

Perhaps you could help me by posting the document which shows the Zinc by mass numbers in ZDDP in the VR1 you are reading off.

Mick Richards

Hi Mick,

it is in german, but scroll down there is a table with all kinds of oils and their Zinc content.

https://www.usteile.ch/blog/oldtimer-und-muscle-cars-motoroele-mit-zddp-additiv/

Jochem

...and since it is on the internet...it must be true

...in this case, the website seems legit.

 

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