Where are all the regularity rally drivers, here? "Show your cockpit"-PHOTO-THREAD

[Tony_C]

7 hours ago, John L said:

May I have some recommendations please for kilometer distance readings for a few Tulip rallies that I like to do. Here the distances are in kms, My main problem is the speedo in the car is in miles and I don't think its that accurate for distance although the speed is pretty accurate with the radar speed indicators we have in some of the towns now.

Is there a relatively simple device that would work making this task much easier for a novice?

John

Hi John,

Single Halda (no need for twin) is simple and - I would say- best... However, they are rare (in good working condition) nowerdays therefore, you can expect to pay accordingly...

 

At the other end of the scale, find out what your speedo and - importantly - trip are actually reading (miles or kilometres makes no difference) and go with the ‘dreaded speed tables’ as the other guys on here mentioned  - the tables are simple but, you need someone not so simple who can accurately interpolate them under duress and some occasional pressure .

(Out of scope on this particular thread but as you are 100% reliant on your speedo, run the cable inside, rather than out, to protect it and even consider carrying a spare)

veel plezier

Tony

[acaie]

I have wondered whether I might graduate from scenic tours to a regularity run. Not wishing to invest too heavily in equipment up front, I am wondering whether modern satellite based systems on a smartphone are adequate

[Tony_C]

20 hours ago, Bleednipple said:

Ha, old school. A Speedpilot (lovely, lovely thing that it is, although I never actually got my hands on one in club rallies back in the day) won't help you much on today's HRCR, HERO etc events, as the regularity sections are timed to the second rather than the minute. And then you're not allowed anything that displays average speed to that level of accuracy, nor pinging cycle meters nor anything like that. Your meter and clocks can be electronic or mechanical whichever you prefer, but you still need speed tables and quick reckoning at speed changes to keep you bang-on. 

Even the Pottis come in LED/cordless versions now. Damned progress, eh? 

Hi Nigel,

Yes, I’ve always appreciated what a lucky boy I am to be current custodian of this particular kit, right place at the right time.... and a wonderful story behind it all in Holland...

 

WHADDYA mean.... "won’t help you much on today’s.....!? ...... Surely not? My first HERO event was when it all (finally) clicked into place..... John Brown was in charge back in the day and it was his ‘Jogularity’ concept of putting distance and time on the same page that made the world spin in the right direction again... what a game changer, regularities went from mumbo jumbo black arts to bang on the second every time.... (if ever we catch-up, I’ll tell you the short story over a beer)

Terminology used to be ‘scrubbing them’, once the proverbial penny dropped and (important in open top TR) got the communications properly set up with co-driver, we would be upset (seriously so) not to ‘scrub’ every control, across the entire rally, to the exact second...... Used to drive John and his team mad and - albeit briefly- brought us into contention with the very best; Willy Cave, John Spritzle, Peter Rushford to name a few, we knocked them along with few of the Scandinavian and European teams off their perch.... Great times and great, great memories .......

[Tony_C]

27 minutes ago, acaie said:

I have wondered whether I might graduate from scenic tours to a regularity run. Not wishing to invest too heavily in equipment up front, I am wondering whether modern satellite based systems on a smartphone are adequate

That’s CHEATING!

[acaie]

8 minutes ago, Tony_C said:

That’s CHEATING!

I have in mind something like DigiHUD which does not show location but does distances and average speeds. Works nicely on scenic tours without cheating.

[Bleednipple]

10 minutes ago, acaie said:

I have wondered whether I might graduate from scenic tours to a regularity run. Not wishing to invest too heavily in equipment up front, I am wondering whether modern satellite based systems on a smartphone are adequate

Smartphone apps may be allowable on some classic events, especially at a novice level, but check first with the organisers of the event. If they are, they will be not as good as a vehicle-mounted tripmeter (mechanical like a Halda, or electronic like a Terratrip, Monit or Brantz), but potentially better than relying just on the car odometer.

Any app that shows average speed will be 'streng verboten' on most classic events. You can only legally have gadgets that show distance travelled and time (time of day and stopwatch), and of course you can display actual speed (ie speedo), but nothing that calculates average speeds other than a set of speed tables. If you do have a snazzy tripmeter that shows average speed, you might be allowed to use it if you tape over that part of the display.

The GPS in your smartphone should be sensitive enough for quite accurate distance measurement on a straight-ish road in open countryside where the GPS antenna in your phone has a clear enough view of the satellites. The problem comes when you're on a very wind-ey road, under trees (ie on a British rally route!). There, the GPS will only be able to get intermittent fixes and can only interpolate between those, so the meter will run 'short' but the trouble is the error won't be consistent and you won't know what it actually is over each mile.

Actually, the modern dedicated (expensive!) tripmeters such as Monits and Brantz can also be installed to run off a GPS antenna, that can be taped to the scuttle or the roof. It gives better results than a smartphone but still not as good as a physical sensor on a wheel or the speedo cable. Even the latest generation of GPS-based Monits that use all the Russian satellite constellations as well as the American ones still aren't that good in the field when in difficult terrain.

Whatever distance measurement device you are using, which may just be the car odometer at first, it's essential that you 'ground truth' it against actual distances. You can do that fairly well by using a GPS phone tripmeter app on a reasonably long stretch of open road, or measure a distance between two landmarks using the distance measurement tool in Google Maps. For more accuracy you'll want to fine-tune that against the 'measured mile' determined by the Clerk of the Course for the event in question. If using the car odometer, once you know your error you can adjust for it using speed tables - eg if you know your speedo/odometer is reading off by 5%, you might use the 27.5 mph speed table column if the required actual average speed for a section is 26 mph.

Similarly, you want to know as accurately as possible your car's speedo error. Having done that I use labels on my speedo dial for the actuals at low speeds, which is pretty helpful especially after fitting a new speedo cable that virtually cured needle-bobbing on my TR4 speedo. Even better, figure out the rev counter readings for various gears and target speeds (a bit of a matrix if you have overdrive though).

That's the basics anyway. Then buy old hands like Tony_C enough beer until they spill the rest of their darker secrets!

Nigel

 

[tr2_applegreen]

The cheapest way for very accurate trip metering is a cycle tacho.
Go for a premium brand, such as VDO, Sigma Sport, etc. which are fast in updating speed and distance, and accurate enough in terms of "resolution".
The VDO M3.1 WR, which I use as a digital speedo, gives you a resolution of 0,xx km.
I callibrated it by measuring a distance of 10x the circumference of the wheel in milimeters, (approx 20 meters), devided it by 10. I repeated this procedure several times and calculated the average. I ended up in an accuracy of +/-0,1%.

However, using it as the only tripmaster for rallying might not be optimal: Zeroing the distance at each leg would be very annoying, since it takes 3sec pushing the button.

[tr2_applegreen]

On 9/24/2020 at 3:04 AM, TorontoTim said:

I like the look of that VH Classics odometer...

Me, as well. :-)

It works electro mechanically. The sensor is attached to the speedo spindle, the counters work electronically.

However, it's kind of tricky with its fully metal case in a positve earth car.

 

 

[Bleednipple]

2 hours ago, tr2_applegreen said:

The cheapest way for very accurate trip metering is a cycle tacho.
Go for a premium brand, such as VDO, Sigma Sport, etc. which are fast in updating speed and distance, and accurate enough in terms of "resolution".
The VDO M3.1 WR, which I use as a digital speedo, gives you a resolution of 0,xx km.
I callibrated it by measuring a distance of 10x the circumference of the wheel in milimeters, (approx 20 meters), devided it by 10. I repeated this procedure several times and calculated the average. I ended up in an accuracy of +/-0,1%.

However, using it as the only tripmaster for rallying might not be optimal: Zeroing the distance at each leg would be very annoying, since it takes 3sec pushing the button.

Interesting. I saw someone using a cycle tacho on a recent event. Certainly much cheaper than a rally tripmeter and potentially just as accurate because the principle is just the same - ie counts 'pings' from wheel (or cable/gear/propshaft) rotations.

It would be important to choose one that can't display average speeds (it looks like the VDO M3.1 WR mentioned would be compliant in that respect) but a faffy or long-winded zeroing would indeed be a significant disadvantage on regularity formats where you need to re-zero at each TP. Three seconds at 30mph is about 40 metres which is a significant error when you're trying to be bang-on to the second at the next TP. But maybe there are cycle tachos out there that have 'instant' zeroing and that would certainly be very good for a novice who doesn't want to spend hundreds on a 'pro' tripmeter.

[Quicksilver]

5 hours ago, Bleednipple said:

Interesting. I saw someone using a cycle tacho on a recent event. Certainly much cheaper than a rally tripmeter and potentially just as accurate because the principle is just the same - ie counts 'pings' from wheel (or cable/gear/propshaft) rotations.

It would be important to choose one that can't display average speeds (it looks like the VDO M3.1 WR mentioned would be compliant in that respect) but a faffy or long-winded zeroing would indeed be a significant disadvantage on regularity formats where you need to re-zero at each TP. Three seconds at 30mph is about 40 metres which is a significant error when you're trying to be bang-on to the second at the next TP. But maybe there are cycle tachos out there that have 'instant' zeroing and that would certainly be very good for a novice who doesn't want to spend hundreds on a 'pro' tripmeter.

When we first start whit this kind of auto-sport, we had only the tacho-meter in mijls ( we have km in Nederland) so that was an challenge.. After a few rally's we install two cycle tachos, each with a switch for the navigator and one for the driver (is still in use). So the problem of the three second to zero/ re-zero is solved by change of the tachos by switching between trip 1 and trip 2. When trip1 is counted you have time to re-zero trip 2 is then ready for action...   And when you like this kind of sport, then it is well worth to invest in a proper tripmeter because it is much more fun for the navigator to work with.

 

(now a days you have the opportunity to instal a app on your phone like 'rally tripmeter' for iPhone)

 

Marcel

Edited September 25, 2020 by Quicksilver

[Tony_C]

13 hours ago, Bleednipple said:

helpful especially after fitting a new speedo cable that virtually cured needle-bobbing on my TR4 speedo. Even better, figure out the rev counter readings for various gears and target speeds (a bit of a matrix if you have overdrive though).

Morning Nigel,

 

All good points, regarding the Rev counter I would only suggest no need to over complicate...

 

Starting with the fundamentals; in any rally, what ever highly tuned and prepared exotica you find yourself up against, be aware from the very outset that none of the competition will be blessed with such a magnificent, large domed Rev counter, so perfectly placed for drivers view throughout, as our early TR’s have. 
 

Begin with, as you say, figuring out the Rev counter readings for overdrive 3rd and (possibly 4th) at say 30mph and whatever the organisers are known to prefer... once you have got this - Mark with tipex if needed- then, ideally, driver gets promptly off the mark then settles down when appropriate and does not deviate Again throughout (!?) from the overdrive 3rd rock steady Rev counter position (these engines are torquey enough)....... No matter one iota if the speedo is happily bouncing away to its own agenda, ignore it Relax and leave the ‘fine tuning’ to your navigator co-driver...

 

Once you’ve got readings for say 30 and 35mph you’ll find 32.5mph sits pretty much in the middle etc.... Key-enabler (as my US colleagues used to be so keen on saying) to all this is having a steady co-pilot who understands, not driver who wants to ‘race’ every gear, overtake everyone, go up and down every track etc - then you’re ‘doomed’, however much equipment you might have!

[Quicksilver]

@ Toni,

 

nice tip marking  the speed limits by the rev counter.

 

Marcel.

[ianc]

Although I don't rally my TR4, I have always driven my TRs (TR2 back in the 1960s) on the tacho.

In the TR4, with the speedo being over to the left, in front of the passenger, it's difficult to read and has always wobbled, so useful only for distance readings.

With a 3.7 axle, the sums are pretty simple.

Ian Cornish

[Tony_C]

1 hour ago, Quicksilver said:

@ Toni,

 

nice tip marking  the speed limits by the rev counter.

 

Marcel.

Yes Marcel, but nothing ‘permanent’ needed, you’ll quickly find your self in tune with the car and can do without.

 

Appreciate your comment earlier about "investing in a proper trip metre.." - Fully agree and as a ‘bonus’ (not based on any facts or research, only my last brief scan of the web ) suspect you will never lose out on so long as you buy at the right price, when the time comes to move them on

[Tony_C]

On 9/23/2020 at 10:36 AM, iain said:

 VHP's period correct dash.

I use a Halda twinmaster on events, but  these were not available in period.

Iain

Very impressive and original Iain, 

The ‘big button’ adjacent to the ammeter is the horn push for the navigator (on continental jaunts) but, what is the on / off toggle switch on the driver side right; overdrive?
 

The yellow cylinder is not a flare, is it?

[iain]

Hi Tony

the Big button is the indeed  Navigators horn (operating the very loud Lucas 1748 horns) which we used in preference to the standard horns on all of the Richardson era cars , The "yellow tube"  is a Dunlop No3 Tyre pressure gauge! 

The toggle switch is a momentary switch for the OD.

Iain

[Tony_C]

Morning Iain,

Thanks and makes sense it is actually a tyre gauge...... 

Although, I still like the idea of sending a distress flare up, when you get completely and utterly lost on a stage...

 

Good weekend to all 

[Quicksilver]

On 9/23/2020 at 3:12 PM, tr2_applegreen said:

Great to hear! I wish you all the best!

Would you like to show us your cockpit for this Saturday? ;-)

Oké here it is, almost the same as showed earlier. Except the iphone tripmeter, the lumiloupe and some markers.

The iphone tripmetre as backup for the GTI-Rallytwin because it was a tight fit Friday night to make it work.... and luckily didn't let me down.

and the results are 1ste in Tourklasse  with no missing RC's 0 and TC's 0  excellent work of the navigator.... (Gea, my better half) 

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Quicksilver

[Quicksilver]

On 9/23/2020 at 4:50 PM, Bleednipple said:

 

Good luck but 7 years is the blink of an eye - I left rallying for nearly 30 years then started again recently. In Britain we would say "you don't forget, it's like riding a bike", but I don't need to say that to a Dutchman... 

We know of Mr Gatsonides over here mainly because he invented the speed camera. But I just looked him up and now realise he apparently invented it to improve racing car design and testing, so he was a very good chap after all!

Nigel

It was a great success, it is true what you say about ' leren fietsen' . We finished first in our klasse.  Zero penalty's for RC's or TC's !

 

(click on the picture)  here is a link for more picture's of the MMG ; 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Quicksilver

[Tony_C]

Well done Marcel...... I know that you have a very good car and .... apparently... very good co-pilot also

[Quicksilver]

8 minutes ago, Tony_C said:

Well done Marcel...... I know that you have a very good car and .... apparently... very good co-pilot also

Thank you, Tony. (she has already read your comment..)

Marcel.

[Quicksilver]

Here is an other cockpit of a TR4 from the MMG last saterday.

I wonder of the alu-dash is not blinking during a nightrally...

 

Marcel.

[Bleednipple]

No, I'm not sure about that dashboard either, but whatever makes people happy must be good! But that Brantz Laser 3 tripmeter (on top of dash) wouldn't be allowed in most historic/classic regularity rallies in UK, as it can display average speeds.

I assume in a LHD TR4 the 'signal box lever' handbrake is pretty much impracticable for handbrake turns? (In my RHD TR4 it's usable, just about, although obviously not as handy as a tunnel-mounted lever. And it's a good excuse for my turns being 'idiosyncratic'...).

Well done on the  MMG, Marcel!

We were supposed to be doing a 5-day in Scotland next week (Highland Thistle) but sadly it's just been cancelled - no big surprise. As a consolation prize we will instead have a day out on the HERO Challenge Three on 10 Oct, in the Taunton area. Looks like we will be the only TR4, although there are several TR6s on the list.

Nigel

[trevor]

On 9/24/2020 at 6:07 PM, Tony_C said:

Hi John,

Single Halda (no need for twin) is simple and - I would say- best... However, they are rare (in good working condition) nowerdays therefore, you can expect to pay accordingly...

 

At the other end of the scale, find out what your speedo and - importantly - trip are actually reading (miles or kilometres makes no difference) and go with the ‘dreaded speed tables’ as the other guys on here mentioned  - the tables are simple but, you need someone not so simple who can accurately interpolate them under duress and some occasional pressure .

(Out of scope on this particular thread but as you are 100% reliant on your speedo, run the cable inside, rather than out, to protect it and even consider carrying a spare)

veel plezier

Tony

Look for a Brantz and you can always use a satellite sensor if the regs allow I have one for my MX5 then I switch over to Cable sensor in the TR4.

[ianc]

On the four VC TR4s, the Works put black vynide across the whole of the dashboard in order to minimise reflections.  There's a photo in topic "Nerdy question for Rally boys" in this General topic area.

That machine-turned dash looks wonderful, but I think it would tend to dazzle the crew.

Ian Cornish

Edited September 30, 2020 by ianc
Info re photo