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New adventure begins in France!


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To put it in Churchillian terms, it's perhaps not the beginning of the end, but I'm certainly coming to the end of the beginning! The engine, gearbox and diff are out, and the chassis has been left naked with the removal of the exhaust and the old lines (see pics below). I'm thrilled with the state of the chassis; it almost could not be better. My next step is to weld on the reinforcements (I have to wait on Rimmer for the diff pin plates; out of stock), and then send it for sandblasting. The gearbox and diff are heading to the UK (while I can still send things from France!) to be rebuilt, and I'm going to tear down the engine myself. One thing I noticed is that the diff appears to have a later-model rear cover; the '69s used the earlier version, and the one I have is single-piece and leaves a bit of the bolt-receiving flange in the housing exposed on one side. I assume this is not an issue, but would welcome any thoughts.

I would also like to repeat my thanks for the advice and ideas I have received - and continue to receive - from this board. You chaps are certainly making things easier, and giving me lots to think about!

Best to all, Blair

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Its easy enough to make the re-enforcing plates for the diff pins, The top plates are 3mm steel with a hole in the middle big enough to sit over the pin and the side plates that go under the bridges are 2mm with a triangle cut off the top corners to relieve stress.

Stuart.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Things are moving on! And now I need some additional collective wisdom, please. As illustrated in the pics below, the engine is out and on a stand for disassembly. In trying to take the head off, I have run up again two recalcitrant studs that will not come out (so far, despite about a quart of penetrating oil). And the head will not budge. As you can see from the pics, it almost looks rusted to the block. As the engine's on a stand, my engine crane only succeeds in picking up the whole thing when I try to lift the head, so that won't work. I can't try the starter/compression trick. I'm beginning to think the rope trick is my only option so: How does it work? What diameter rope? With a knot in the end to give a bit more lifting force? In each cylinder in sequence, or only 1 and 6? Or should I order a stud puller, get those last two out, and then see?

Thanks chaps; you're all helping a lot!

Best regards,

Blair

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I would remove the studs, or a least one of them. I have used one of these stud extractors for this very task a number of times. I you can get one stud out you should be able to rotate the head to free it up on  the remaining stud.

Chris

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I've ordered a stud extractor. Double-nutting is how I got the others out, but these two are not moving. I even cut the bottom nut in half longitudinally so the top one would get a better grip on the threads - no dice. I'm crossing my fingers I don't have to drill the SOBs out...

Best, Blair

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Weld a couple of nuts on and use a good impact socket and a bar. The heat from the welding might help keep on with the penetration oil going in and cycles of heat oil give it a go should see them loose. 
 

Di you know anyone with an induction heater some garages have one for such situations rather than using a torch.

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Just removed a very stuck head this afternoon. Filled cylinders 3 and 4 (doesn't have to be those 2 just they were at the bottom of the stroke) with light oil, replace plugs and turn over engine with a breaker bar and socket on the crankshaft pulley nut. Lifted a treat enough to get a pry bar in and gradually worked it up bit by bit. Didn't take photo's unfortunately.

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So, the stud extractor arrived, and after heating and cooling several times, spraying with penetrating oil, tapping to create vibrations, and applying a judicious use of force, I did not snap the stud off flush with the head. Rather slightly above the head. Needless to say, I did not try the second stud.

I'm starting to run out of ideas...

Blair

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Would it be possible to take the weight by the head, lift off the floor 10mm so that the weight of the block can work in your favour. Might be worth temporarily replacing the studs loosely so you can keep control of the block.

ps I'm not a mechanic and might be talking a load of s*it

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8 hours ago, mkmick said:

Would it be possible to take the weight by the head, lift off the floor 10mm so that the weight of the block can work in your favour. Might be worth temporarily replacing the studs loosely so you can keep control of the block.

ps I'm not a mechanic and might be talking a load of s*it

Sounds like a good idea to use it’s own weight for a few days/week while feeding oil in. Still the option to weld a nut on and give it a go.

Andy

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Well, taking my mother's advice that one can occasionally accomplish things through brute force and awkwardness, I have made some progress (pics below). After additional heating, cooling and oiling, I turned the engine upside down on the stand and started beating on the four corners of the head using 2x4s (several destroyed) and a 5-lb hammer. As you can see, I have succeeded in opening up a gap of about 1/2 inch all the way around, though one of the two stuck studs is still resisting fiercely. It was taking such force to move the head that I was afraid I was actually tearing the bottom stud threads out of the block  So I measured the exposed tops of the studs and indeed, as the head moves, the exposed measurement decreases; a reassurance. I have enough space opened that I could get some penetrating oil in the bottom side of the two remaining studs as well, so I oiled them up and left them overnight upside down with wedges driven in around the stud to keep it under tension (and a sling rigged just in case I get lucky!). Still, if yesterday is any indication, I have yet quite a bit of hammering to do today. And if worse comes to worst, at least I can get a saw in to cut the stud off at the bottom of the head, leaving myself enough grip room to get them out of the block. Fingers crossed!

Blair

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On a different topic, I have taken note of the Moss vs Rimmer Bros thread with a bit of concern. I have ordered parts from Rimmer because they seem to be better supplied, and frequently have things that Moss does not. Is this as much a mistake as it appears to be? Will I be better off shopping around and giving preference to Moss and TRGB, for example? Or is it really much of a muchness. Thanks in advance for your advice.

Blair

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8 hours ago, BlairP said:

On a different topic, I have taken note of the Moss vs Rimmer Bros thread with a bit of concern. I have ordered parts from Rimmer because they seem to be better supplied, and frequently have things that Moss does not. Is this as much a mistake as it appears to be? Will I be better off shopping around and giving preference to Moss and TRGB, for example? Or is it really much of a muchness. Thanks in advance for your advice.

Blair

Hi Blair 

I was much like you and used Rimmers, now I know better and avoid if I can. Ask on here and shop around for the best parts even if they cost more. Cheaper in the long run as I've ended up buying twice and the car hasn't turned a wheel  yet. I'd rather do it once while its easier to work on a stripped car.

As said just ask there's at least a collective 10,000 years of knowledge!

Andy

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Success!! With much gratitude to my son, who bravely held the wood blocks in place, I had a go with a 15-lb sledge while the engine was still upside down. It still took almost an hour to get it off, but finally, off it came! Clearly, this is the first time the head had been separated from the block, and the problem appears to have been that the last two holdout studs were over-torqued, as they were bent as well as rusty. Still, all's well that ends well. Now to tackle the block!

Blair

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Hello, and hooray! With the head off, my engine is starting to come apart fairly straightforwardly. Of course, this raises for me - a beginner - as many questions as it answers.

I discovered that I have a standard 307689 camshaft, and it appears to be in good nick. After doing some research, I have not discovered any way to verify its condition. So to the board: What should I be doing to check it out and ensure its lobes are not too worn? Can I measure them with a micrometre to verify they are still within specification? Other tests?

Secondly, when I was hammering on the head with the engine upside down, 10 of the 12 cam followers fell out (naturally) and I removed them, losing their positioning in the process. Once the head was off, the last two came out very easily. My question is this: Can I re-use them when I reassemble the engine, despite not having the positioning? They appear to be in good shape (pics below; the two in close up are in the least good condition), and it seems that if I respect the run-in period, they should be re-usable, allowing me to continue with my effort to re-use as many original parts as possible, as replacements are rarely as well made. That said, the Moss website says never to re-use cam followers. Thoughts?

Finally, I watched a very instructive video of Elin Yakov restoring a TR4 engine. He had a very detailed spec sheet for tolerances regarding crankshaft and piston bearings which allowed him to determine whether he needed oversized bearings based on crankshaft measurements. I cannot find an analogous spec sheet for a TR6 engine. Does one exist somewhere?

Best to all, and again, many thanks!

Blair 

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On 11/8/2020 at 7:37 AM, BlairP said:

Hello, and hooray! With the head off, my engine is starting to come apart fairly straightforwardly. Of course, this raises for me - a beginner - as many questions as it answers.

I discovered that I have a standard 307689 camshaft, and it appears to be in good nick. After doing some research, I have not discovered any way to verify its condition. So to the board: What should I be doing to check it out and ensure its lobes are not too worn? Can I measure them with a micrometre to verify they are still within specification? Other tests?

Secondly, when I was hammering on the head with the engine upside down, 10 of the 12 cam followers fell out (naturally) and I removed them, losing their positioning in the process. Once the head was off, the last two came out very easily. My question is this: Can I re-use them when I reassemble the engine, despite not having the positioning? They appear to be in good shape (pics below; the two in close up are in the least good condition), and it seems that if I respect the run-in period, they should be re-usable, allowing me to continue with my effort to re-use as many original parts as possible, as replacements are rarely as well made. That said, the Moss website says never to re-use cam followers. Thoughts?

Finally, I watched a very instructive video of Elin Yakov restoring a TR4 engine. He had a very detailed spec sheet for tolerances regarding crankshaft and piston bearings which allowed him to determine whether he needed oversized bearings based on crankshaft measurements. I cannot find an analogous spec sheet for a TR6 engine. Does one exist somewhere?

Best to all, and again, many thanks!

Blair 

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We need a photo of the bottoms? The part that runs on the lobes? If they are pitted its a bit job! Also you need to check the wear on the cam shaft bores as they are one of the keys, to good oil pressure. You can get the dims from the brown book but you need a telescopic mic and micrometre. You may have to ask a machine shop to do this for you? Check the lobes for any flats on the cam shaft and diameters of journals?

Bruce.

 

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16 hours ago, astontr6 said:

We need a photo of the bottoms? The part that runs on the lobes? If they are pitted its a bit job! Also you need to check the wear on the cam shaft bores as they are one of the keys, to good oil pressure. You can get the dims from the brown book but you need a telescopic mic and micrometre. You may have to ask a machine shop to do this for you? Check the lobes for any flats on the cam shaft and diameters of journals?

Bruce.

 

Hi Bruce, and thanks for your thoughts. I have taken the camshaft to a specialist for examination and verification. I also took the followers (pics of the three most worn below), and he said they were in good shape and would do with a light polishing. I will, however, need to run the engine in once it is re-assembled.

Regards, Blair

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17 minutes ago, BlairP said:

Hi Bruce, and thanks for your thoughts. I have taken the camshaft to a specialist for examination and verification. I also took the followers (pics of the three most worn below), and he said they were in good shape and would do with a light polishing. I will, however, need to run the engine in once it is re-assembled.

Regards, Blair

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Looking at those 3 cam followers in your pictures they look a bit rough to me/ I am not certain if that is rust on the bottoms or congealed oil or missing surface metal? I would replace the lot if the others show  any signs of the same problem? What is the situation on the camshaft bearings in the block?

Bruce

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So: the engine is apart, and the internals are out (pics below). The block is upside down, draining from its massive Gunk treatment, and I'll pull the core plugs and oil gallery screws before sending it to the machine shop next week to have the bores and surfaces verified, and a cleaning inside and out in preparation for painting.

 

Before I removed the pistons and bearings, I checked the end float on the crank. It came out consistently over a couple of hours at 9.5/1000, only slightly out of spec. When I pulled the crank, I found standard thrust washers (149551 EGS C), which appear to be in pretty good shape with little to no wear – each measured standard at .092. My question is this: How do I correct the end float to within spec? Or do I really need to given its current measurement? If I replace one washer with a +.005, will that make the float too tight? Ideas?

As always, thanks in advance. This place is a gold mine!

Blair

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5 hours ago, BlairP said:

So: the engine is apart, and the internals are out (pics below). The block is upside down, draining from its massive Gunk treatment, and I'll pull the core plugs and oil gallery screws before sending it to the machine shop next week to have the bores and surfaces verified, and a cleaning inside and out in preparation for painting.

 

Before I removed the pistons and bearings, I checked the end float on the crank. It came out consistently over a couple of hours at 9.5/1000, only slightly out of spec. When I pulled the crank, I found standard thrust washers (149551 EGS C), which appear to be in pretty good shape with little to no wear – each measured standard at .092. My question is this: How do I correct the end float to within spec? Or do I really need to given its current measurement? If I replace one washer with a +.005, will that make the float too tight? Ideas?

As always, thanks in advance. This place is a gold mine!

Blair

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I used oversize thrust washers but thinned them down by rubbing the bearing face on a piece of wet and dry which was laid on to an old mirror face. I was able to be within .0001" of top limit clearance.

Bruce.

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I have decided to buy new cam followers, astray aren't the expensive. I'm also taking all the lower engine parts to my machine shop (in Dijon) to have them checked and verified. That way I'll know for certain about the state of bearings, sizes to order, etc. I thought I might be able to do all that myself, but better safe than sorry! Thank you for all your shared wisdom. 

So in prepping the block and other parts to go off, I ran across two interesting things (see pics). First, the block is/was painted a kind of olive green. Seems like an odd colour choice to me, but perhaps you've seen it before. Second, I dismantled and cleaned one of the pistons and, surprise, surprise!, it is +.020. I guess maybe the head had been off before at some point in this car's history! 

What one doesn't learn from one day to the next! 

Regards to all, 

Blair

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  • 3 weeks later...

Greetings all, and sorry for the radio silence the last little while. I've gotten to the point were I'm just cleaning/refurbishing parts, and while vital, that's not particularly interesting.

That said, I've got two questions for the collective mind:

1. I got the chassis back from media blasting with a coat of primer on so I can weld in the reinforcements before final finishing. With all the undercoating removed, it appears to me the quality of the factory welds is, how to put it, less than ideal (see pics below). Is this a usual situation? Should I go through and reweld everywhere that's sub-standard, or is this just one of the pleasures of being a TR6 owner? If so, that's a lot of welding...

2. I've cleaned up the rear suspension trailing arms, which look good after wire wheeling/brushing and wiping with solvent. Do these parts gets painted? And if so, what colour? They did not appear to have any paint on them when I cleaned them and, being aluminium, maybe they are left raw?

Thanks, and regards, Blair 

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The bottom two pictures of the bird poop welds are not factory welds. Is the car american by any chance ? You can see the mount is twisted and badly plated, time for mr grinder me thinks to cut the suspension mount and start again I would also measure the diagonals to make sure the frame is square, it looks like the suspension mount has just torn off and been welded back on with "reinforcements" :rolleyes:. On the top photo it looks like the Tee shirt has been replaced as well with untidy but possibly servicable welds, I would be tempted to grind then back and reweld.

cheers

 

Alan

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