Jump to content

New tyres


Recommended Posts

On 8/15/2020 at 2:43 PM, c.hydes said:

Thanks to all who replied advising that I should change my 21 year old tyres which I will do. I have some questions please.

My wheels are 8 spoke 15 inch "minilite alloy lookalikes", and I believe that are from the Moss Minitor range, however there are no markings of size. All that is marked is: 15J/MADE IN UK/S.C.P/and a logo that looks like IKNI. At present my tyres are Yokohama A-509, 185 x 65 x 15. My questions are:

1. Can anyone confirm what make are they, and is the rim size 5 or 5 1/2J.

2. What is the maximum width of tyre that I can put on these rims, and what are the pros & cons of say 195 ?

Cheers, Colin.

 

Hi All. So it's time to replace my 21 year old tyres. As discussed my four tyres are 185 x 65 x 15 on Minator 5 1/2 J rims my spare is 195 x 65 x 15 on the same rim and also at least 21 years.

I have fitted the 195 on both the front and rear positions and there are no issues with clearances etc even on full lock. Taking various comparison measurements between the 185 and 195  its approx 10 mm wider and approx 14mm larger in diameter which you would expect. However comparing the end on profile, the 185 Yokohama is much flatter across the top than 195 Goodyear, and indeed when fitted and under the weight of the car, the width in contact with the road is the same as the 195. (see attached photo).

 

 

Question is:

Is the design/specification of the Yokohama different in this area,  in other words if I go for 195`s what should I be looking out for to ensure the contact width is 195?

 Regards, Colin.

Tyre Comparison.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Waldi said:

The tire on the right looks narrower Colin, or is this a visual thing.

Waldi

3 minutes ago, Waldi said:

The tire on the right looks narrower Colin, or is this a visual thing.

Waldi

Hi Waldi, the LHS tyre is the Yokohama 185 and the RHS is the Goodyear 195. That is exactly my point. The overall widths of the the tyres (sidewall to sidewall are correct at 185 and 195, but width of tread on the road are the same at 185 mm, so no advantage in the wider 195 ? 

Cheers Colin

On 8/15/2020 at 2:43 PM, c.hydes said:

Thanks to all who replied advising that I should change my 21 year old tyres which I will do. I have some questions please.

My wheels are 8 spoke 15 inch "minilite alloy lookalikes", and I believe that are from the Moss Minitor range, however there are no markings of size. All that is marked is: 15J/MADE IN UK/S.C.P/and a logo that looks like IKNI. At present my tyres are Yokohama A-509, 185 x 65 x 15. My questions are:

1. Can anyone confirm what make are they, and is the rim size 5 or 5 1/2J.

2. What is the maximum width of tyre that I can put on these rims, and what are the pros & cons of say 195 ?

Cheers, Colin.

 

Hi All. So it's time to replace my 21 year old tyres. As discussed my four tyres are 185 x 65 x 15 on Minator 5 1/2 J rims my spare is 195 x 65 x 15 on the same rim and also at least 21 years.

I have fitted the 195 on both the front and rear positions and there are no issues with clearances etc even on full lock. Taking various comparison measurements between the 185 and 195  its approx 10 mm wider and approx 14mm larger in diameter which you would expect. However comparing the end on profile, the 185 Yokohama is much flatter across the top than 195 Goodyear, and indeed when fitted and under the weight of the car, the width in contact with the road is the same as the 195. (see attached photo).

 

 

Question is:

Is the design/specification of the Yokohama different in this area,  in other words if I go for 195`s what should I be looking out for to ensure the contact width is 195?

 Regards, Colin.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Colin,

I think this is a personal thing Colin, I would be happy with a smaller contact area as it will provide lighter steering at parking, manoeuvring.
Maybe the left tire is also a bit more worn?

Cheers,

Waldi

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some useful info on this site: https://www.tyresizecalculator.com/tyre-wheel-calculators/tyre-size-for-rim-size-width-calculator unless you're convinced 205's are a good idea ;-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Waldi & Ian, I have seen these sites but for me I`am thinking more of the design of tyres at the tread end. Why is the Yokohama 185 wider than the Goodyear 195 when in contact with the road?

Sorry to be a pain, but just need to understand if there is a "style/specification/grade" for tyres that puts more rubber on the road?

Colin. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Colin,

Check the rolling radius to compare, just because tyres or profiles are shown as the same the deformation of the tyres has a bearing upon how the "on the road" rolling radius is arrived at ie the amount of tread on the road eg: check out Tom Freemont, with his TR250 on 185 tyres he calculates I think 15% of the tread doesn't contact the road because of the negative camber settings. Having an anti roll bar fitted just makes that worse ! encouraging across car weight transfer and flatter cornering which maintains the static camber settings ...which means the tyres are not vertical and the tyre contact patch is compromised. 

That means the standard attitude of the car in corners is...understeer, manufacturers like understeer, that makes it safe for even the most challenged of skilled drivers,... too fast into the corner ? the car just sails on no matter what lock is applied, when it scrubs off enough speed the tyres grip and the car tucks in. A car with a tyre that grips instantly at the front requires a balanced and progressive suspension system because the driver is the controlling agent, too fast in and the driver HAS to apply more throttle almost instantly to cause the rear tyres to deform with the applied extra throttle so as to squirm and lose grip (it's called tyre slippage, note that is NOT a skid). Just like Fangio is doing here.

283026487_Fangiodrifting.thumb.png.f3e92ff079843de727770cb6d5380c3f.png

The driver controls the angle of the car by varying the tyre slippage and the lack of grip generated, here Fangio holds the car in the drift which is NOT the typical all 4 wheels pointing in a straight line drift. Here he has deliberately "stretched the envelope" he's applying probably about 200 revs more than the revs required for the standard typical 4 wheel drift, by so doing it means he's having to apply the smallest amount of opposite lock (probably 5 or 7 degrees) to prevent the car entering into oversteer and a skid. The reason he's doing this is to "carry" more revs and speed though the corner, meaning he arrives at the beginning of the next straight with a 200 rev advantage which is carried all the way down the straight meaning...he will go faster and his time is reduced .  

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the design/specification of the Yokohama different in this area,  in other words if I go for 195`s what should I be looking out for to ensure the contact width is 195?

I also noticed this but on my car that has Continental 245/45/16 but are N1, ie Porsche approved and the contact patch is flat right to the edge so getting the full 245. This profile was declared as "ultra low" in 1988 and cost around £300 each, ie around 200 gallons of petrol then, time has passed where 45 profile and 16" are fitted to basic cars and about 10 gallons!

Some tyres are as you suggest, appear to have less contact patch between brands. I had a problem last month getting 245/45/16 of correct speed rating of a make I was comfortable with so ended up getting 17" rims with the same ET (itself difficult finding ET52) and now on 255/40/17.

Regards

Bill 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/22/2020 at 6:48 PM, Motorsport Mickey said:

Colin,

Check the rolling radius to compare, just because tyres or profiles are shown as the same the deformation of the tyres has a bearing upon how the "on the road" rolling radius is arrived at ie the amount of tread on the road eg: check out Tom Freemont, with his TR250 on 185 tyres he calculates I think 15% of the tread doesn't contact the road because of the negative camber settings. Having an anti roll bar fitted just makes that worse ! encouraging across car weight transfer and flatter cornering which maintains the static camber settings ...which means the tyres are not vertical and the tyre contact patch is compromised. 

That means the standard attitude of the car in corners is...understeer, manufacturers like understeer, that makes it safe for even the most challenged of skilled drivers,... too fast into the corner ? the car just sails on no matter what lock is applied, when it scrubs off enough speed the tyres grip and the car tucks in. A car with a tyre that grips instantly at the front requires a balanced and progressive suspension system because the driver is the controlling agent, too fast in and the driver HAS to apply more throttle almost instantly to cause the rear tyres to deform with the applied extra throttle so as to squirm and lose grip (it's called tyre slippage, note that is NOT a skid). Just like Fangio is doing here.

283026487_Fangiodrifting.thumb.png.f3e92ff079843de727770cb6d5380c3f.png

The driver controls the angle of the car by varying the tyre slippage and the lack of grip generated, here Fangio holds the car in the drift which is NOT the typical all 4 wheels pointing in a straight line drift. Here he has deliberately "stretched the envelope" he's applying probably about 200 revs more than the revs required for the standard typical 4 wheel drift, by so doing it means he's having to apply the smallest amount of opposite lock (probably 5 or 7 degrees) to prevent the car entering into oversteer and a skid. The reason he's doing this is to "carry" more revs and speed though the corner, meaning he arrives at the beginning of the next straight with a 200 rev advantage which is carried all the way down the straight meaning...he will go faster and his time is reduced .  

Mick Richards

Looking at the nose of his car there may be a clue as to why most of us shouldn't be drifting to that extent on public roads!

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Bill944T said:

Is the design/specification of the Yokohama different in this area,  in other words if I go for 195`s what should I be looking out for to ensure the contact width is 195?

I also noticed this but on my car that has Continental 245/45/16 but are N1, ie Porsche approved and the contact patch is flat right to the edge so getting the full 245. This profile was declared as "ultra low" in 1988 and cost around £300 each, ie around 200 gallons of petrol then, time has passed where 45 profile and 16" are fitted to basic cars and about 10 gallons!

Some tyres are as you suggest, appear to have less contact patch between brands. I had a problem last month getting 245/45/16 of correct speed rating of a make I was comfortable with so ended up getting 17" rims with the same ET (itself difficult finding ET52) and now on 255/40/17.

Regards

Bill 

Yes Bill glad you came to similar conclusions. Think i`ll go have some conversations with my local tyre experts before deciding on tyres and tyre widths etc.

P.s do you have any photos of the car on 245/45/16 and 255/40/17?

Cheers, Colin.

Link to post
Share on other sites

P.s do you have any photos of the car on 245/45/16 and 255/40/17?

I think I've misled you there Colin, my TR6 is laid up so was talking about the tyres/wheels on my 944Turbo.........

You made me think about the TR6 tyres I used to have, either Michelin XAS or Dunlop SP sport and I think that the Dunlops were "flatter" compared to the Michelins despite having the same 165 profile. And again thinking back, you used to be able to get the XAS tyres that were marked "DA" as you could buy these "defective appearance" tyres for less £.

Regards

Bill 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bill944T said:

P.s do you have any photos of the car on 245/45/16 and 255/40/17?

I think I've misled you there Colin, my TR6 is laid up so was talking about the tyres/wheels on my 944Turbo.........

You made me think about the TR6 tyres I used to have, either Michelin XAS or Dunlop SP sport and I think that the Dunlops were "flatter" compared to the Michelins despite having the same 165 profile. And again thinking back, you used to be able to get the XAS tyres that were marked "DA" as you could buy these "defective appearance" tyres for less £.

Regards

Bill 

Understood Bill.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/24/2020 at 10:48 AM, Andy Moltu said:

Looking at the nose of his car there may be a clue as to why most of us shouldn't be drifting to that extent on public roads!

That photo is in the French GP at Rouen in 1957 which Fangio won in his Maserati 250F. I believe the crumpled nose was a result of him tupping Jean Behra's similar car up the back during a chaotic start when the extrovert flag starter, Toto Roche, dropped the flag in a very flamboyant way and nearly got run over.

Colin, 

In your photo of the 2 tyres alongside each other are they on the same width rims.

The nearest rolling radius to the original 165 15 tyres are 185 70 15 or 195 65 15. I've run my TR5 on 195 65 15 Yokohamas for 20 years, firstly A509, which I think your 185 looks like and then on C Drive. I've been very pleased with them and will be fitting the same size again after my current restoration.

Dave McD

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Dave McDonald said:

. I've run my TR5 on 195 65 15 Yokohamas for 20 years, firstly A509, which I think your 185 looks like and then on C Drive. I've been very pleased with them and will be fitting the same size again after my current restoration.

Dave McD

I use those same Yokohamas as do a lot of the other guys down here, theyre a good tyre.

Stuart.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Dave and Stuart for replying with the two previous and to answer your input:

Yes, I purchased all 5 wheels at the build in 1999 they are Minitor 5 1/2 J, 15". Current 4 tyres are Yokohama A-509, 185/65/15. When you compare these on the car and loaded they have a flatter surface profile on the ground of 150 mm compared to the Goodyear 195/65/15 which measures at 140 mm ie 10 mm wider contact but for a tyre that in theory 10 mm smaller. This is what I dont understand. Seems to me that the Yokohama has a much "squarer profile", but sadly cant get this tyre anymore ???

Colin.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Colin,

Are both tyres new and, more importantly, structurally sound? I once had a set of Pirellis (on a TR7) of which two had a problem with the circumferential belt under the tread. One broke, resulting in a tyre with a much larger diameter than it should have been. Not to mention dangerous. I discovered the problem after I'd lost it on a wet corner and collected a Skoda coming the other way. The Pirelli dealer replaced both tyres but not free - only discounted for the amount of tread I hadn't used. I kid you not!

Just mentioning it in case the Goodyear is stuffed and not representative.

Cheers,
John

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Hi Colin,

Are both tyres new and, more importantly, structurally sound? I once had a set of Pirellis (on a TR7) of which two had a problem with the circumferential belt under the tread. One broke, resulting in a tyre with a much larger diameter than it should have been. Not to mention dangerous. I discovered the problem after I'd lost it on a wet corner and collected a Skoda coming the other way. The Pirelli dealer replaced both tyres but not free - only discounted for the amount of tread I hadn't used. I kid you not!

Just mentioning it in case the Goodyear is stuffed and not representative.

Cheers,
John

No John, both tyres are not new,  both are 21 years old.

Colin.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, c.hydes said:

No John, both tyres are not new,  both are 21 years old.

Colin.

Aaah. Yes. As you said at the outset. Maybe better just to compare new tyres then?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 months later...

Just reading this topic. I can’t believe folks are running around on 8 year old tyres let alone tyres over 20 years old. Talk about taking your life in your hands. I bin mine after 5 years regardless of how little miles. 
Fortunately my Jag ( and the previous bmw) the tyres are WTL before my 5 year limit. Even the old Golf and focus hacks get new rubber.

Verdstein T Track 2 on the TR, Focus and Golf. Mr. Dunlop’s on the Jaaaag.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 weeks later...

I will be changing my aged tyres from 195 to 165, in the hope that it will be easier to steer at lower speed.

Would it be necessary to make any changes to camber, toe in/out etc.

I won't be doing this myself but it would be good to know. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The standard settings were for that original size tyre, so if your car is standard no change should be necessary.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Please familiarise yourself with our Terms and Conditions. By using this site, you agree to the following: Terms of Use.