Richmac Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 Hi I took my recently purchased car out on one of these lovely warm evenings only to find my headlights are not much better than a pair of candles. They are Halogen but are so dim. They have been wired in without using relays. I have another old car that I put halogen lights into without relays and they are so much better. Anybody any idea why this should be? I see Moss claim the relays will increase brightness. Which leads me to another question, are the relays necessary for safety and are they easy to fit? Do they just fit in line? If necessary should I buy the moss kit or just a couple of relays? Regards Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 Sounds like there's a big loss of power through resistance in the wiring, switch or connections ..which is why your previous headlamps were also dim. I've had a stack of old cars and motorcycles and never used relays with them despite using very much more powerful bulbs. Never had a problem, but then I do check the wiring and clean each and every connection (with a little emery paper) and then Vaseline those connections with every vehicle ..soon after I buy it. I do this because excessive electrical resistance results in heat = melted insulation and possibly fire. So it's not only dim lights but a very important safety precaution. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytr5 Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 You don't have to use relays, they will primarily protect the switch from high currents. Not all reflectors are created equal. Wipac are awful compared to Cibie. If the bulbs are old you could try some 'Nightbreakers' or equivalent as well as doing what Pete suggests. LED's are worth investigating as the current is much reduced. Jerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yarm 783 Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 Richard, I had a similar issue, switched to LEDs, easy fit and a big improvement (I used Classic Car LEDs), I have no attachment to them, but quality from places like eBay can be patchy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, jerrytr5 said: You don't have to use relays, they will primarily protect the switch from high currents. Not all reflectors are created equal. Wipac are awful compared to Cibie. If the bulbs are old you could try some 'Nightbreakers' or equivalent as well as doing what Pete suggests. LED's are worth investigating as the current is much reduced. Jerry Jerry makes a good point about the reflectors, as indeed is the cut of the glass. Similarly I like Cibie headlamps and feel they are worth spending the extra on. It's also worth noting that some headlamp reflectors don't take well to changing the type of bulb, ie., from tungsten to halogen. The reason being - because the bulb holder or else the filament in the bulb itself is in a slightly different position, so when changed - that filament is no longer at the focal point of the reflector. So although brighter luminosity there is more flare and less targeting of the light onto the road in front of you. If you have spares to try, a change of bulbs might rectify the situation. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Prefect Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 +1 For LED Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 And for all the owners in the UK please take note of the following, I try not to spend my life peeing on others “ parade” but a working life spent doing so is difficult to break. https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/are-led-headlights-legal-in-the-uk/ Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Harbottle Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 22 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said: And for all the owners in the UK please take note of the following, I try not to spend my life peeing on others “ parade” but a working life spent doing so is difficult to break. https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/are-led-headlights-legal-in-the-uk/ Mick Richards Excellent post Mick. Makes a better clarification than anything else I have seen. Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Triumph Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, Harbottle said: Excellent post Mick. Makes a better clarification than anything else I have seen. Paul +1 Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 4 hours ago, Richmac said: Hi I took my recently purchased car out on one of these lovely warm evenings only to find my headlights are not much better than a pair of candles. They are Halogen but are so dim. They have been wired in without using relays. I have another old car that I put halogen lights into without relays and they are so much better. Anybody any idea why this should be? I see Moss claim the relays will increase brightness. Which leads me to another question, are the relays necessary for safety and are they easy to fit? Do they just fit in line? If necessary should I buy the moss kit or just a couple of relays? Regards Richard Can you rig up a direct feed from the battery to the lamp? Is it brighter that way? Could be a resistance in the switch and its connectors. Are you getting the full 12 volts or battery voltage at the lamp connectors when the engine is running? If not investigate where the loss might be. Switch? Fuses and so on. Are the earth connections for both the lamps good? This is a favourite for dim lamps. Relays will protect the switch and supply full voltage to the lamps. If you are handy with electrics a simple relay kit can be made from spares. Get a relay receptacle with an integral fuse if you can. Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spit_2.5PI Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 Richard, if you have a means of measuring voltage (a DVM, AVO, etc.) then measure the voltage at the battery and then at the bulbs. Incandescent bulbs are VERY sensitive to voltage. From memory, 10% lower voltage drops the light output by 50%. Mind you it also means they last 50% longer - or is it 100% longer, I can't remember? (Higher voltage does the opposite, by the way.) The Triumph wiring loom wasn't generous in choice of wire gauge to start with (remember all the advice to uprate the PI pump feed?) and when you add the losses across 45 year old connectors and light switch, all these losses add up to significant voltage drops - and dim headlights! Tracking down and minimising these losses is time consuming. Adding relays to make a direct feed from the battery to the headlights is another strategy, with uprated cables being an added benefit. The easy option is to change to LEDs, because they operate in a different way and are not sensitive to lower voltage (within reason). However, the modification is not legal, as already pointed out. I've added relays to mine, but then again this sort of thing is my bread and butter. All home designed and made. This doesn't help you. Maybe you need an auto-electrician? Maybe eat more carrots! Cheers, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill944T Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 Hmm, an article written by a vendor of said bulbs........................... Regards Bill Add to Compare H4 HIDS4U Stealth 35W Bi-Xenon HID Conversion Kit (5 based on 3 reviews) HIDS4U Stealth Xenon HID Conversion Kit rated at 35W. Perfect upgrade for standard halogen bulbs & developed to exacting specifications for vehicles with advanced ECU (CAN-Bus) systems. Product Details £69.95 inc VAT Availability: In Stock Code: H4ULT5 ADD TO BASKET Compare selected 4.1.4. Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp. 4.1.5. Vehicles with high intensity discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with a suspension or headlamp self-levelling system. If these systems have been fitted, they must work. Sometimes it is not easy to determine if the self-levelling systems work. In such cases you should give the benefit of the doubt. You can identify HID headlamps from: · ‘DCR’ mark on the headlamp lens or body · an igniter module or inverter behind the headlamp · taking a few seconds to reach full intensity · a bluish tinge to the light HID headlamps use high voltage. You should take care when inspecting these headlamps. 4.1.6. Headlamp cleaning devices You must inspect vehicles first used on or after 1 September 2009 equipped with headlamp washers. You can identify HID headlamps from: · ‘DCR’ mark on the headlamp lens or body · an igniter module or inverter behind the headlamp · taking a few seconds to reach full intensity · a bluish tinge to the light HID headlamps use high voltage. You should take care when inspecting these headlamps. Defect Category (a) Headlamp cleaning device: (i) inoperative (ii) inoperative in the case of LED or gas discharge systems (HID) Minor Major As we conclude this article – aftermarket LED bulbs are not road legal according to the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations as they are not E marked. MOT testing centres should still pass LED upgrade bulbs in your headlights as long as your beam pattern is OK. There is never a guarantee that your vehicle will pass an MOT if you purchase cheap or faulty products so always ensure that you purchase quality branded LED bulbs from reputable sellers. We believe that the system for car bulbs is vastly outdated. The The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 is based on old technology and doesn’t account for newer technologies like LED’s. The regulations are not in-line with current MOT testing guidelines and creates a confusing message for people looking to purchase these products. One side tells them they are not road legal yet the other side tells them it is fine for an MOT. Sealed LED headlight units might seem like a good option when buying a car or van but consider the costs for the future. Add to Compare H4 Philips X-treme Ultinon Gen 2 LED Headlights (5 based on 2 reviews) Summer Sale 100's Of Products On Sale Now! Up to 250% more light Unique OEM LED chips used for superior light performance Bright White 5800K Temperature Smaller driver box for easy install Up to 12 Years life span Product Details £119.00 inc VAT Was £179.99 Availability: In Stock Code: 11342XUWX2 1 2 3 ADD TO BASKET Compare selected Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tthomson Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 5 hours ago, Richmac said: Hi I took my recently purchased car out on one of these lovely warm evenings only to find my headlights are not much better than a pair of candles. They are Halogen but are so dim. They have been wired in without using relays. I have another old car that I put halogen lights into without relays and they are so much better. Anybody any idea why this should be? I see Moss claim the relays will increase brightness. Which leads me to another question, are the relays necessary for safety and are they easy to fit? Do they just fit in line? If necessary should I buy the moss kit or just a couple of relays? Regards Richard Hi Richard, Using Relays means you get less voltage drop at the headlamp bulbs. To put this into perspective. A 12 Volt 60 Watt headlamp bulb will only put out 48.4 Watts at 11 volts, and 40 Watts at 10 Volts. I have attached a diagram of the relays I have used in my TR4A, should you wish to do something similar. The most important thing is to use really high current wires from the battery to the relays I have not included a further upgrade to add a relay for the sidelights, but that is also an easy mod. Good luck Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trchris Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 LED bulbs unless fitted as original equipment are illegal at the moment you should fit relays as per Tonys diagram above and use good quality bulbs Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 To throw in another variable: ECE regulation 37 specifies the luminous flux of the H4 bulb high/low filament as 1650/1000 lumens ±15% at 13.2 volts. That means you can buy two H4 bulbs and if one was at the top end of the tolerance and the other at the bottom end, there could be 30% difference in brightness. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 "Hmm, an article written by a vendor of said bulbs........................... Regards Bill " Yep, and as far as I can see when reading it they don't seek to promote anything they sell, they just state what the law is and where you could end up. Not a bad article really, all owners make changes to their car at their own discretion, until the law changes you do so at your risk. It never seems that important when you are sat with a cup of coffee thinking about how cool your new lights look, it's when you have arrived home after an accident at night where the other party says "his lights blinded me" and the police have impounded your car for forensic tests that you get that uncomfortable feeling that maybeeeee... Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richmac Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 Well Thanks to you all for the contributions. I am certainly much wiser than I was. I will do a bit more investigating on the car first and see where it takes me. The buckets the headlights sit in need to be replaced and I will certainly be cleaning up any connections and protecting with Vaseline. But first its booked for an MOT next week so lets see if its bright enough for them. I don't like my car being of the road Many thanks again Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted August 11, 2020 Report Share Posted August 11, 2020 My TR6 halogen headlights are **** too. They have direct power from a relay. I added fog lamps and now I can see where I am going at night. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yarm 783 Posted August 11, 2020 Report Share Posted August 11, 2020 I was horrified to read that the LEDs I just installed may not be legal. I spoke to the vendor and he confirmed it, but explained it is more complex than that. Most MOT stations will pass a car with LEDs as long as the beam pattern is correct. Mine is. I notified my insurer, he noted the upgrade, but when I asked they said they didn’t see it as an issue as long as the beam pattern had been set correctly. But they aren’t road legal. There you have it, down to you to make the call. I have decided to stay with mine, they are miles better than the halogens, warm white so don’t dazzle (my wife checked) and we do very little night driving. The poorer quality LEDs may cause an issue in respect of color, lumens, beam pattern, so buyer beware. What a mess! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tthomson Posted August 11, 2020 Report Share Posted August 11, 2020 I failed to mention that should you choose to use my circuit, the 1N4007 diodes are shown for Negative ground. if you have positive ground both these diodes should be reversed. (On the physical diode, the end with a white band is the cathode - negative end), see attached diagrams. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill944T Posted August 11, 2020 Report Share Posted August 11, 2020 I think this needs further comment: 4.1.5. Vehicles with high intensity discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with a suspension or headlamp self-levelling system. If these systems have been fitted, they must work. My understanding is that vehicles with HID/LED headlights require not only wash wipe but also self levelling. The only exception to the self levelling requirement is for those vehicles with very little suspension movement on acceleration/braking, not something that really applies to a TR6! Regards Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Seymour Posted August 11, 2020 Report Share Posted August 11, 2020 Have run an led bulb for about five years in my motorcycle, never been an issue on mot or dazzling oncoming traffic. So much better than standard, so plan to do similar to the TR6. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill944T Posted August 11, 2020 Report Share Posted August 11, 2020 Have run an led bulb for about five years in my motorcycle, never been an issue on mot or dazzling oncoming traffic. So much better than standard, so plan to do similar to the TR6. I guess the guy was dazzled not to look at the legality of the number plate!!!!!! Regards Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Seymour Posted August 11, 2020 Report Share Posted August 11, 2020 34 minutes ago, Bill944T said: Have run an led bulb for about five years in my motorcycle, never been an issue on mot or dazzling oncoming traffic. So much better than standard, so plan to do similar to the TR6. I guess the guy was dazzled not to look at the legality of the number plate!!!!!! Regards Bill The number plate also has never been an issue at any testing station, and the 9 years I have owned it, it has been to a few! No it’s not fully compliant with the law, but I have seen a lot smaller than mine! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stagpowered Posted August 11, 2020 Report Share Posted August 11, 2020 I had **** lights on my TR250 for years Eventually I measured the voltage at the lights at 10V with 14V at the battery. Spent hours checking the connections but was losing about 1/4V to 1/2V at every connection so fitted relays and there was a massive improvement. I tried LEDs but it failed the MOT on beam pattern so sticking with bulbs Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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