PI plug fouling

[Nigel Triumph]

1 hour ago, astontr6 said:

I am an avid reader of Practical Classics magazine so I look forward to reading this episode Can you give me a more precise month?

Bruce.

Hi Bruce,

My Staff Car Saga with the new breather arrangement is scheduled for the November issue of Practical Classics, due out on 30th September, though in the world of publishing these things sometimes change. Sorry for the wait, I hope you find my ramblings are worthwhile. The cylinder head gasket replacement referred to in the TSSC thread above should be in the October issue of Practical Classics, if you're interested to take a look at that. It was replacing the head gasket and chasing down oil leaks that got me interested in fitting the extra breather.

The engine is certainly more oil tight with these improvements. Not only has the head gaskets area remained dry, the front pulley oil seal used to leak and that's stayed dry since the new breather was fitted.

Hope to meet you at an event, it would be good to think we will all be able to gather at shows again before too long.

Nigel

[astontr6]

14 hours ago, Nigel Triumph said:

Hi Bruce,

My Staff Car Saga with the new breather arrangement is scheduled for the November issue of Practical Classics, due out on 30th September, though in the world of publishing these things sometimes change. Sorry for the wait, I hope you find my ramblings are worthwhile. The cylinder head gasket replacement referred to in the TSSC thread above should be in the October issue of Practical Classics, if you're interested to take a look at that. It was replacing the head gasket and chasing down oil leaks that got me interested in fitting the extra breather.

The engine is certainly more oil tight with these improvements. Not only has the head gaskets area remained dry, the front pulley oil seal used to leak and that's stayed dry since the new breather was fitted.

Hope to meet you at an event, it would be good to think we will all be able to gather at shows again before too long.

Nigel

Thanks for your kind words! Yes I would like to meet up at one of the events.

Bruce.

[Nigel Triumph]

Just to confirm, the November issue of Practical Classics has details of how the extra breather was fitted to my TR6, in my Staff Car Saga. It was out yesterday,  on the newsagents shelves now.

Nigel

[astontr6]

On 8/9/2020 at 5:51 PM, RobH said:

The  WR78 is a resistor-type suppressed plug so copper cored leads are best.  

For some reason if you have electronic ignition you must not use copper core HT leads? Anybody know the reason why? Its the carbon string type only?

Bruce.

[RobH]

Never really got to the bottom of that one Bruce - though a number of makers say the same thing.  It may be because the points replacement in the distributor is a Hall-effect device with an amplifier too, which could be sensitive to the interference generated by the sparks from the rotor to the terminals in the cap. Plain copper leads will allow a faster rise-time with a consequent increase in the radio-frequency content which might upset the sensor I suppose.  Whether that still happens with plain leads if the plugs or plug caps are resistive is an unanswered question.

At least one manufacturer has the amplifier separate from the sensor and mounted outside the distributor, which they say eliminates such interference.    

Electrically I would expect plain leads with resistive plugs to perform similarly to resistive leads with plain plugs. What you don't really need is for both of them to be resistive.  

[john.r.davies]

I'll look out for your Saga, Nigel.    I contributed to the thread at the TSSC, but not with a picture;

The attatchment to the block can't be seen - it's an alloy plate with a 15mm tube brazed into it.     In the pic, the catch tank is on the bulkhead's left, joined below by the rising (to allow condensation and return of oil vapour) hose to the base, and just below the cap by a hose to the rocker cover, that carries a filtered vent to get rid of water vapour and waste gas.     I've never had to empty the catch tank in thousands of miles.

May we see a pic of your set up, please?

John

[JohnC]

Back on the original topic, I have a 1971 PI which is standard apart from Pertronix Hall-effect points replacement. It will idle happily all day (well, 20mins is all it's had to do probably) with no plug fouling. Mind you, the oil pressure is nothing flash at idle once well hot, but  that's another story I'm investigating.

I use BP6ES on 1-4 and BP5ES on 5&6, although I have no evidence that BP6ES would cause probs on 5&6 but it improves the colour on a plug chop. I do balance the throttle-bodies very carefully, so perhaps that makes a difference. I recently replaced the original vertical links with Rose-jointed ones, and that made it harder to balance, FWIW.

@John - I keep meaning to join TSOANSW. Is that the group you do club runs with?

John

[Mick Forey]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Mind you, the oil pressure is nothing flash at idle once well hot, but  that's another story I'm investigating.

Try a switch to Penrite 20W-60, this made a noticeable improvement to my TR6 hot oil pressure at idle.

Mick

[john.r.davies]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

@John - I keep meaning to join TSOANSW. Is that the group you do club runs with?

John

Not this John, John.  I'm a Pom.

[Nigel Triumph]

3 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

 

May we see a pic of your set up, please?

John

Sorry for the thread drift.

John, thank you for your engine bay shot, impressive stuff! My TR6 is under a cover in the garage right now, I will get a photo and post later. I've credited the TSSC forum community for the breather idea in Practical Classics,  though didn't name individuals contributors. 

Nigel

[Nigel Triumph]

7 minutes ago, Mick Forey said:

Try a switch to Penrite 20W-60, this made a noticeable improvement to my TR6 hot oil pressure at idle.

Mick

I used Millers 20W60 in my GT6 2 litre engine, when it was worn and approaching time for rebuild. This also showed improved hot oil pressure. Oil consumption reduced too, just as well as it's an expensive grade of oil!

Nigel

[astontr6]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Back on the original topic, I have a 1971 PI which is standard apart from Pertronix Hall-effect points replacement. It will idle happily all day (well, 20mins is all it's had to do probably) with no plug fouling. Mind you, the oil pressure is nothing flash at idle once well hot, but  that's another story I'm investigating.

I use BP6ES on 1-4 and BP5ES on 5&6, although I have no evidence that BP6ES would cause probs on 5&6 but it improves the colour on a plug chop. I do balance the throttle-bodies very carefully, so perhaps that makes a difference. I recently replaced the original vertical links with Rose-jointed ones, and that made it harder to balance, FWIW.

@John - I keep meaning to join TSOANSW. Is that the group you do club runs with? we have some days here of

John

I would have thought that with the sort of temperatures you have out there that you need an oil cooler on your TR?

We have had a week of around 90 degrees this year, my TR has a cooler and it runs at 50 psi hot on tick over  and 75 psi at over 2000 rpm hot even after a 20 mile + run on the motorway at 70+ MPH in that temperature!

Bruce.

[Nigel Triumph]

As requested by John, here's a photo of the additional breather fitted to my TR6.

It's a bit crowded around the metering unit/distributor area... The breather pipe exits the engine via a homemade adaptor fitted to the  originally blanked off mechanical fuel pump boss on the side of the block. The hose runs upwards to a cylindrical catch pot on the inner wing.

More details in Practical Classics November issue.

Nigel

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

Not this John, John.  I'm a Pom.

Haha! No, I meant John McCormack.

[John McCormack]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Haha! No, I meant John McCormack.

Apologies, I didn't see this post until now.

I am a member of TSOA in NSW but am President of the TR Register Australia. My wife and I are heavily involved in the Register and have attended one or two TSOA outings I don't have the time to do both.

The Register here is a sidescreen club but many members have other TRs or classics. It is common to have TR4, 5 or 6 cars on our runs although the owners all have sidescreens as well.

I'll PM you my mobile.

 

[John McCormack]

Plug fouling is important to my ownership of the car. As much as I love it I live a few kms from the centre of a 4.5m people city. Traffic is a normal hazard at some times so owning a car that fouls plugs in traffic is a problem.

The car recently had a 'fail to proceed' moment and when I fitted a new coil she ran fine. For a while.

The problem returned and was eventually traced to the Lumenition ignition, which I have posted separately. The problem was the wiring harness connectors had corroded and were starting to break up, had been for some time. I thought the ignition system was only 10 or so years old. It turns out it could have been fitted in the 80s, an early version.

Now with a new coil and a new Lumenition, it is early days, but the cars performance is even better than before and I haven't had any plug fouling. I've had the car idling at lights in traffic for long enough to have had a problem in the past (but not as long as sometimes happens here).

I'm really hopeful the problem is solved.

 

[Waldi]

Hi John, when I reconditioned my CP throttle bodies I found a lot of debris (oily cake) in the air channel from idle valve to each air intake, also in the cross-drilled smaller bores to each inlet tract. If you have not done this in the past years it is worth considering. Good opportunity to clean and inspect the entire inlet and outlet manifolds!

G’day,

Waldi

[John McCormack]

15 hours ago, Waldi said:

Hi John, when I reconditioned my CP throttle bodies I found a lot of debris (oily cake) in the air channel from idle valve to each air intake, also in the cross-drilled smaller bores to each inlet tract. If you have not done this in the past years it is worth considering. Good opportunity to clean and inspect the entire inlet and outlet manifolds!

G’day,

Waldi

Thanks Waldi. So far I've had no issues with the injection and everybody I speak to says 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. 

I took the TR6 to a coffee and classics meet this morning. Not much traffic so took the Harbour Bridge up and Gladesville Bridge home. Some 90km/h sections but mostly 60-70 limits.

I got caught at lights a few times with idling for a minute or two. As I approached home I was idling at the lights for maybe 90 seconds and then gave a her a run to 5,000 rpm in 2nd. No issues at all.

Seems to reinforce the assumption that I have had a failing coil/ignition system for some time which caused the plug fouling. 

[John McCormack]

On 10/4/2020 at 11:08 AM, John McCormack said:

Thanks Waldi. So far I've had no issues with the injection and everybody I speak to says 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. 

I took the TR6 to a coffee and classics meet this morning. Not much traffic so took the Harbour Bridge up and Gladesville Bridge home. Some 90km/h sections but mostly 60-70 limits.

I got caught at lights a few times with idling for a minute or two. As I approached home I was idling at the lights for maybe 90 seconds and then gave a her a run to 5,000 rpm in 2nd. No issues at all.

Seems to reinforce the assumption that I have had a failing coil/ignition system for some time which caused the plug fouling. 

I good test today. A 40km drive to see my mum and then back. No issues except good ones.

I then took her to an inner city suburb to collect a spare TR3A cylinder head I had getting checked out and was in heavy traffic for a lot of the time, frequently at idle for multiple changes of lights. Near home I gave her a blast and no fouling, no misfiring or backfiring. 

As well as solving that issue the car is performing far better, idles better, runs better at low revs under load (previously I couldn't really drive it below 1500rpm in top or od, now it will pull away in top from 1000 and in od from 1300rpm) and even the fuel economy seems to be much improved.

I expect the electronic ignition has been failing for a long time and maybe the coil also. I thought the Lumenition was 10 or so years old, apparently it was a 1980s version.

[astontr6]

On 10/1/2020 at 4:17 PM, Nigel Triumph said:

Just to confirm, the November issue of Practical Classics has details of how the extra breather was fitted to my TR6, in my Staff Car Saga. It was out yesterday,  on the newsagents shelves now.

Nigel

Hi Nigel! I have got my copy!

Bruce.