Ethanol

[Richardtr3a]

I have just been to my local garden machinery store. They are selling an Ethanol Shield fuel stabiliser. It is £7.00 to treat 150 litres of petrol. Is it a help. ?  It is supposed to stop the fuel going stale and absorbing water. Does anyone on the Forum use it. Richard & B

[Richardtr3a]

I have bought some now need to search the garage for my measuring needle to inject the correct a mount into the tank. Unless any one suggests that it is a mistake.               I do have the hardened valve seats.  It is going in tomorrow unless      someone  advises that It may cause damage. Thanks Richard &B

[RobH]

I thought that stuff was only necessary if you are storing the car for some time (months) with fuel in the tank.  If the car is in regular use you surely shouldn't need it ?

[Mick Forey]

I have used this one from Frost: https://www.frost.co.uk/ethomix-corrosion-inhibitor-additive-ethanol-protection/ for the winter layup. Don't bother with it in summer as the fuel does not have time to degrade if you drive your TR regularly. Notice this one is endorsed by the FBHVC, they tested quite a range of additives and endorsed about 4 of them.

Mick

[MikeyB1]

Surely an Ethanol protection additive is meant to be used at all times.  Ethanol attacks  not only by just sitting there, but as it flows through the system whilst the car is in use.  By not using it in the summer, you are allowing it to do it's damage all the time. Ethomix is not meant as just a lay-up protector.  Mike.

[Mick Forey]

You are correct when thinking about ethanol attacking rubber seals. Seals and pipes should be replaced with the correct ethanol proof seal if you start to get a problem. Not sure any additive helps with this issue, there is no claim that Ethomix does anything for seals and fuel lines. However, the biggest issue I observed was the brown sludge in the fuel lines, filters, carbs and tank in Spring. This is caused by the absorption of water by the ethanol and then separating out over time. Apart from the direct clogging issue, I also observed poor starting in Spring before I started to use Ethomix or its predecessor a few years ago. I don't see this brown sludge anywhere near as much during the summer.

Mick

Edited July 26, 2020 by Mick Forey

[David Clarke]

My understanding is that ethanol damages rubber seals and pipes and plastic components ; friends with motorcycles say that its use will cause big problems with the plastic fuel tanks which some machines have.  

It is also hygroscopic and when water separates and layers below the fuel, it leads to corrosion of steel fuel tanks ; this may be one reason for the brown sludge Mick mentions.

I also gather that MPG reduces by around 7% with E10 fuel, partly negating the eco credentials of the fuel ?

Perhaps the balance of the pros and cons of increasing ethanol use is more complex than some will have us believe ?

David

 

[Nobbyc]

I have been running my 4cyl .on 10% ethanol fuel for years. When ethanol was introduced I had just finished a rebuild and had inserts in the head and  replaced all the fuel hoses and run an electric pump. I cleaned my fuel tank out and installed an inline filter before the pump. I have changed the filter 3 times but never had one block. I have averaged 5000k per year and drive my car hard. Always be known to have a heavy right foot but  fuel consumption is still  better than 10 L/100k and on a long club run better than some others running on 98oct.

I think all additives are snake oil and have never used any.

[Lebro]

I also do not use additives, but I do fill up with Esso "super" petrol, which, I believe, in my area has zero ethanol in it.

Bob.

[RobH]

There seems to be a lot of fear and rumour about ethanol, which is maybe not fully justified because it isn't actually anything new. From the 1930s to the early 60s there was a company called Cleveland Discol whose selling point was the inclusion of ethanol in their petrol. 

The petrol contained 'up to' 20% ethanol.  Strangely there were no stories of damage caused to cars by using it - in fact some people swore by the stuff - so the cars of the  30's, 40's and 50's must have been able to use 20% ethanol petrol with no problem and without needing any magic potions.  

Maybe what is happening now is that some normal end-of-life failures are now being ascribed to ethanol as a result of all the talk, and perhaps most classic cars are not used frequently enough to ensure fuel doesn't go stale and water collect where it shouldn't?   Water absorption isn't going to be a problem if the fuel doesn't stay in the system long before it is used. 

(Glass-fibre fuel tanks on 'bikes may be a special case as they may not have been around at the time Discol was available.) 

[stuart]

In the US it was very common for garages to offer "Ethyl" fuel.from the 1920`s onwards

Stuart.

[MikeF]

12 hours ago, David Clarke said:

Perhaps the balance of the pros and cons of increasing ethanol use is more complex than some will have us believe ?

David

Correct: There is considerable discussion and some doubt as to the benefits or otherwise of biological additions to petrol/diesel. The numbers can be made for or against. eg Ethanol derived from corn (maize) has been shown to use more energy to make it than it generates on one  hand  to 1.4x more on the other. So called second generation ethanol derived from plant waste is much better in this respect. Googling keywords "ethanol petrol environment" will produce a whole load of confusing reports. to occupy you if we get another lockdown. Diesel is more confusing still eg eg 50% of the palm oil imported by EU is burnt in diesel engines.

 

Mike

[stillp]

59 minutes ago, RobH said:

There seems to be a lot of fear and rumour about ethanol, which is maybe not fully justified because it isn't actually anything new. From the 1930s to the early 60s there was a company called Cleveland Discol whose selling point was the inclusion of ethanol in their petrol. 

The petrol contained 'up to' 20% ethanol.  Strangely there were no stories of damage caused to cars by using it - in fact some people swore by the stuff - so the cars of the  30's, 40's and 50's must have been able to use 20% ethanol petrol with no problem and without needing any magic potions.  

Maybe what is happening now is that some normal end-of-life failures are now being ascribed to ethanol as a result of all the talk, and perhaps most classic cars are not used frequently enough to ensure fuel doesn't go stale and water collect where it shouldn't?   Water absorption isn't going to be a problem if the fuel doesn't stay in the system long before it is used. 

(Glass-fibre fuel tanks on 'bikes may be a special case as they may not have been around at the time Discol was available.) 

Perhaps cars didn't last so long in the days of Discol so ethanol-induced failures weren't noticeable?

I suspect though that you've hit the nail on the head with "most classic cars are not used frequently enough to ensure fuel doesn't go stale and water collect where it shouldn't". I used to drive a dual-fuel (petrol/LPG) Vectra, which needed petrol to start but then ran on LPG. The LPG system never gave any problems, but I had to have the petrol pump replaced twice, and the tank once, due apparently to the boundary between the petrol and the air above remaining at a similar level for months.

Pete

[Mick Forey]

7 hours ago, MikeF said:

There is considerable discussion and some doubt as to the benefits or otherwise of biological additions to petrol/diesel.

Yes, I attended an environment conference a number of years ago and some speakers were very scathing of the benefits if you look at the issue holistically including conflict of land and water usage. The USA drove the widespread use of ethanol from a security of energy supply stance, not environmental, blinkered environmentalists jumped on the bandwagon and now we have got it whether it does anything for the planet or not. 

Mick

[stillp]

+1

Pete

[DavidBee]

+1

David

[ed_h]

On 7/27/2020 at 3:27 AM, stuart said:

In the US it was very common for garages to offer "Ethyl" fuel.from the 1920`s onwards

Stuart.

That's true, and it lasted at least into the 60s. The "ethyl" refered to the tetraethyl lead added to reduce knock and allow more advanced timing and better performance.  In the end, of course, the lead part turned out to be a bad thing, and it was phased out.

Ed