Steering box lube?

[Brian Eldred]

To drain the oil I undid the brass nut, loosened the olive, loosened the 4 bolts then eased the end plate forward, without removing it or the shims.

I'll take the plate right off next and see what I can see. The front apron if off anyway so access is fine.

Brian

[Brian Eldred]

So this is what I found. The lower bearing cage was completely out of alignment. It's gouged bits out of the cover and the race (which is also cracked), so heaven knows how it ever drove like that, but it's not been driven since 1973 to my knowledge so I'll never know!

The last pic shows that there is a small chip in the inner race, which is the end of the cam I guess. I'm wondering if I'll get away with this if I smooth it off?

Brian

[Lebro]

The question is was it like that before you slackened off the bottom plate to let the oil out, or did the cage (& balls) slip down, & then when you tightened the plate up again one ball got trapped between the end of the worm where the chip is & the end plate ?

The race obviously needs replacing, you may get away with taking the sharp edge off the end of the worm. It is hard steel as I recall.

I would have thought having got so far you may as well remove the steering wheel, & pull the worm & shaft right out, then you can check the top bearing.

Another part that wears is the bush surrounding the drop shaft. but that requires taking the whole box assy out, & removing the arm on the bottom of it.

This is usually quite hard to do.

Bob.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Lebro

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

57 minutes ago, Lebro said:

The question is was it lake that before you slackened off the bottom plate to let the oil out, or did the cage (& balls) slip down, & then when you tightened the plate up again one ball got trapped between the end of the worm where the chip is & the end plate ?

The race obviously needs replacing, you may get away with taking the sharp edge off the end of the worm. It is hard steel as I recall.

I would have thought having got so far you may as well remove the steering wheel, & pull the worm & shaft right out, then you can check the top bearing.

Another part that wears is the bush surrounding the drop shaft. but that requires taking the whole box assy out, & removing the arm on the bottom of it.

This is usually quite hard to do.

Bob.

Steering Box rebuild - here is an useful how to.

https://macysgarage.com/stg-box-1.htm

Parts break down

https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/steering-tr2-3a-1953-62.html

Peter W

Edited July 26, 2020 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Brian Eldred]

Bob, I would think from the large gouge in the end plate that it's been like that for some time. 

To remove the worm and shaft, would I not also have to remove the rocker shaft etc? Then to withdraw the whole shaft wouldn't be possible with the box in the car?

I think I'll try replacing the lower bearing and race and see how it feels.

Brian

[Brian Eldred]

1 hour ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Steering Box rebuild - here is an useful how to.

https://macysgarage.com/stg-box-1.htm

Parts break down

https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/steering-tr2-3a-1953-62.html

Peter W

7 hours labour for an expert - a bit outside my comfort zone methinks!

[Lebro]

53 minutes ago, Brian Eldred said:

Bob, I would think from the large gouge in the end plate that it's been like that for some time. 

To remove the worm and shaft, would I not also have to remove the rocker shaft etc? Then to withdraw the whole shaft wouldn't be possible with the box in the car?

I think I'll try replacing the lower bearing and race and see how it feels.

Brian

You are probably correct, it depends how high the peg can be raised with the top cover off.

I would have thought the column could be with drawn if the front of the car was raised up.

Bob.

[stuart]

You wont get the worm out without removing the drop arm from under the box and you cant really do that in the car plus its a pig to remove (I have the factory tool for it)

Stuart.

[Brian Eldred]

I've ordered a bearing and a few shims from Moss so keeping my fingers crossed that that resolves it 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

8 hours ago, Brian Eldred said:

Bob, I would think from the large gouge in the end plate that it's been like that for some time. 

To remove the worm and shaft, would I not also have to remove the rocker shaft etc? Then to withdraw the whole shaft wouldn't be possible with the box in the car?

I think I'll try replacing the lower bearing and race and see how it feels.

Brian

Maybe with the steering wheel off and the top cover removed and wheels on full lock you can rotate the worm so it 'unscrews' out the end of the box far enough for you to inspect the upper ball race and balls.

You will then either breathe a sigh of relief or something else.

Cheers

Peter W

Edited July 26, 2020 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Lebro]

+1

[John McCormack]

7 hours ago, Brian Eldred said:

I've ordered a bearing and a few shims from Moss so keeping my fingers crossed that that resolves it 

That is what I would do Brian. I reckon you or someone did what I did once and tightened the end plate up with a bearing out of place.

The steering column isn't rotating at any speed and a new bearing should resolve it. 

The longest part of a steering box rebuild is getting the front apron off. Taking the column out is just undoing the various bolts, separating the arm from the pin and removing the wheel. It then comes out easily.

As Lebro says put in a new bush and have it reamed by a workshop. Then just assemble the box. People on here can guide you through getting the end float right which can be tricky.

It sounds daunting but it is really quite simple. I've done two, one for each car. It transforms the steering making it only marginally less good than r&p. In my view it is better than r&p.

[Brian Eldred]

I discovered that it is in fact possible to withdraw the worm without removing the rocker shaft. I took the steering wheel off, then pulled the rocker shaft up as far as it would go., and the worm clears the peg.

The rear bearing and race look OK fortunately! (sigh of relief duly breathed...)

I read in the Macy's Garage guide that to replace the rocker shaft bush you need a press and a reamer, and Stuart says the arm is a pig to remove. I can't feel any lateral movement (how else do you detect wear?), so I'm inclined to leave it alone.

You can see there is some wear on the worm. So the next question is, is it worth investing in one of these? https://www.revingtontr.com/product/rtr3075rk/name/top-plate-steering-box-tr2-3b-rhd

Brian

[iain]

The RevingtonTR top plate was a good investment for me.

Iain

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Just be sure to set it up correctly as I fear the thing could allow the peg to jump out the worm if not correctly and fully loaded.

Peter W

[Lebro]

I made my own version of the sprung top plate. The adjusting screw has to wound down till the steering binds, then backed off the minimum amount to allow free movement. It is excellent at achieving almost zero play in the straight ahead position (which is the only position you would notice any play)

Well done in getting it out I have not had to that myself, but had a feeling it was possible.

Bob.

[John McCormack]

That worm will last your lifetime.

The Revington top adjusted as suggested by Lebro, hard down then back off a fraction so it just turns without binding, improves the steering on curves a great deal.

[Lebro]

I don't see how it can make any difference other than straight ahead. As soon as you turn the wheel the peg is forced onto one side of the worms slot, & the self centering action of the steering geometry will hold it there ?

Bob.

[John McCormack]

15 minutes ago, Lebro said:

I don't see how it can make any difference other than straight ahead. As soon as you turn the wheel the peg is forced onto one side of the worms slot, & the self centering action of the steering geometry will hold it there ?

Bob.

It holds the pin down in the worm. As the pin moves away from the centre of the worm it tends to float as the small clearance set up in the straight ahead is lost. The slack in the system (tie rod ends, bearings, silent bloc bushes, steering box slack and the steering adjustments normal on a sweeping bend) don't hold the pin in the worm.

My experience is that the main benefit has been on sweeping high speed bends.

Edited July 28, 2020 by John McCormack

[Lebro]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one John. 

Bob.

[Dave Herrod]

Brian,

I too have been re-acquainting myself with the inside of the steering box.  Along the way, I seem to have amassed a small collection of steering box parts - although none of the scrolls is much better than yours.  If you need anything that is NLA, shout up.

Dave

[Brian Eldred]

I've ordered the Revington adjustable plate, so when that and the bearing/shims arrive I'll put it all back together. I thought it worth doing a proper job while the apron is off - though somewhat more expensive than the intended oil change!

I won't be able to test it out for a while - I haven't yet had the engine fired up, and I have all the brake seals to replace. I haven't driven a sidescreen car since about 1972, but I do remember it taking all my concentration to keep it in a straight line at the ton....

I

[John McCormack]

I've got a iphone video of my car at speed on a left hand sweeping bend but I can't figure out how to post it as it is a 30 meg file. If somebody can point me in the right direction it shows how good a steering box can be.

[Ralph Whitaker]

In the past, when most cars were steering box and not r&p, I adjusted many to take out the slack in the straight ahead position to avoid MOT fails. Problem arises because with a worn worm if you take out the slack in the straight ahead, they can become tight when turning on to a less worn part of the worm. I can see the benefit of the revington spring loaded plate because the spring will keep the peg pressed down into the worn straight ahead part, but allow it to move out slightly when turning on to the less worn areas so it doesn`t bind.

Ralph.

[Lebro]

Quite so.

Bob.