Best Fuel Filter for Bosch Pump

[Guest GeoffWalker]

For some reason when I bought my 6 there was no inline Fuel filter before the Bosch Pump.

 

To avoid damaging the pump or the Metering unit I would like to install one.

I have two questions:

 

1. Could somebody tell me which car manufacturer makes the most suitable one and for what model?

 

2. I have an early Tr6 with no anti-surge reservoir in the petrol tank, so I experience the infamous fuel starvation when driving around sharp left hand corners, which I consider very dangerous if coming onto a Dual Carraigeway or Motorway.

Are there any simple fixes to this problem, without replacing the tank?

 

 

Kind Regards,

 

Geoff.

[oily]

For some reason when I bought my 6 there was no inline Fuel filter before the Bosch Pump.

 

To avoid damaging the pump or the Metering unit I would like to install one.

I have two questions:

 

1. Could somebody tell me which car manufacturer makes the most suitable one and for what model?

 

2. I have an early Tr6 with no anti-surge reservoir in the petrol tank, so I experience the infamous fuel starvation when driving around sharp left hand corners, which I consider very dangerous if coming onto a Dual Carraigeway or Motorway.

Are there any simple fixes to this problem, without replacing the tank?

Kind Regards,

 

Geoff.

 

 

Hi Geoff,

Whilst i dont know all the answers toyour questions i can tell you this from my experiences this week. With concerns over the heating aspects of the Lucas pump and its reliability i went to great expence to buy and fit a new Bosch unit mounted externally. This was against the advice of TRE. This disapproval centred around the outlet size of the tank, the restictive nature of the prepump filter and the requirement for flooded suction. However with my Lucas pump concerns onboard we diceded to try both types of pumps to prove a point. Road tested on Saturday the Lucas pump was a clear hands down winner over the Bosch unit. The difference in performance was significant. The prepump filter is so restrictive to fuel flow that delivery to the business end was effected adversley. This is probably why yours has been removed. You are quite right that the pump needs to be protected and a filter is required. but in that a lucas pump Sucks fuel in whist a Bosch pump doesnt, i am concerned that any filter would be a problem.

Bottom line for me is that there is a brand new, used for 10 miles, bosch kit going on EBay. Further in that next week i am going to design and fit a forced cooling system with thermo control and manual overide to overcome the problems with the Lucas unit.

 

Not much help to you, I know, but possible explination why the filter is absent.

 

Regards

 

Noel

[Richard Crawley]

Hi Geoff,

Whilst i dont know all the answers toyour questions i can tell you this from my experiences this week. With concerns over the heating aspects of the Lucas pump and its reliability i went to great expence to buy and fit a new Bosch unit mounted externally. This was against the advice of TRE. This disapproval centred around the outlet size of the tank, the restictive nature of the prepump filter and the requirement for flooded suction. However with my Lucas pump concerns onboard we diceded to try both types of pumps to prove a point. Road tested on Saturday the Lucas pump was a clear hands down winner over the Bosch unit. The difference in performance was significant. The prepump filter is so restrictive to fuel flow that delivery to the business end was effected adversley. This is probably why yours has been removed. You are quite right that the pump needs to be protected and a filter is required. but in that a lucas pump Sucks fuel in whist a Bosch pump doesnt, i am concerned that any filter would be a problem.

Bottom line for me is that there is a brand new, used for 10 miles, bosch kit going on EBay. Further in that next week i am going to design and fit a forced cooling system with thermo control and manual overide to overcome the problems with the Lucas unit.

 

Not much help to you, I know, but possible explination why the filter is absent.

 

Regards

 

Noel

 

Hi Noel

You may or may not have read some of my previous ramblings re my Lucas pump & my reluctance to go Bosch in an attempt to overcome the problems.

 

Some questions;

You say the Lucas was a hands down winner, can you give some more info as to how you measured the performance of each pump & in what ways the Lucas was superior, was the Bosch really that bad?

 

Which Bosch conversion did you try as I have heard there is more than one?

 

I would be interested to know what you propose for a forced cooling system & weather or not it works? I have been thinking along these lines for some time but have not attempted anything yet due to the fact I have no spare time at present.

 

Have you thought about fitting a facet pump before the Lucas unit? I believe others have had success with this but don’t know for sure.

[Andy Moltu]

For some reason when I bought my 6 there was no inline Fuel filter before the Bosch Pump.

 

To avoid damaging the pump or the Metering unit I would like to install one.

I have two questions:

 

1. Could somebody tell me which car manufacturer makes the most suitable one and for what model?

 

2. I have an early Tr6 with no anti-surge reservoir in the petrol tank, so I experience the infamous fuel starvation when driving around sharp left hand corners, which I consider very dangerous if coming onto a Dual Carraigeway or Motorway.

Are there any simple fixes to this problem, without replacing the tank?

Kind Regards,

 

Geoff.

 

Pre filter A pre filter such as this

 

And a post (high pressure) such as Bosch 405 905 021 or it's equivalent.

 

As for the fuel starvation on a lowish tank the practical solution is a small sump tank - all it needs to do is hold a mug or so of fuel. I'm in the process of getting one made that takes the fuel return fromn the PRV.

The Bosch pumps do draw more fuel which means they have a tendancy to suck in air when the tank is low which exacerbates the problems experienced with non-baffle tanks.

 

Not a fan of the Lucas pump. It wasn't the pump Lucas chose to fit initially but were obliged to use a modified wiper motor to get the price down to that set by Triumph. 40 years on, several rebuilds later they are generally not worth bothering with.

 

Oily - did you check your fuel pressure? Often the Lucas pump struggles to make 100 psi so very little (if any) fuel is diverted by the PRV which then becomes stuck. Then if you fit a Bosch (which can do 150 psi if the prv isn't functioning) it if doomed to overheat trying to pump extreme pressures.

Edited June 12, 2006 by andymoltu

[badshead]

Pre filter A pre filter such as this

 

And a post (high pressure) such as Bosch 405 905 021 or it's equivalent.

 

Concur with Andy's pre-filter and post filter recommendation. My Bosch pump is located in the spare wheel well so gravity feed is sufficient to adequately supply pump. Added bonus with the glass pre-filter is you can easily see any crud in the fuel, plus replacement filters are easy to source and fit.

[Guest GeoffWalker]

Thanks Folks for all your advice.

 

I've come up with a solution that should fix both problems.

 

Bosch make a Diesel fuel filter for the new Beetle diesel which is perfect for the job!

 

It has an input and output feed and when mounted vertically (as in a golf or Beetle) will also act as a sump or reservoir for the Tank.

 

It also has a natty T-piece used for the return supply.

This means the fuel returning from the metering unit can replenish the reservoir, so there is never any air locks and any excess fuel will flow via the other end of the t-piece back into the tank

 

 

From my understanding of modern Diesel engines the Filter will be well able to deal with a large drawer of fuel from it as the Diesel pump would be feeding it at a similar pressure to the PI System. Therefore the TR's Bosch Pump will have a good free flowing supply with little to no restrictions.

 

I'm open to any criticisms. So let me know if you think this'll not work but I'm very confident it will.

 

I'll let you know how it goes and might start selling it as a kit on Ebay to soften my Fuel BILL

[oily]

Thanks Folks for all your advice.

 

I've come up with a solution that should fix both problems.

 

Bosch make a Diesel fuel filter for the new Beetle diesel which is perfect for the job!

 

It has an input and output feed and when mounted vertically (as in a golf or Beetle) will also act as a sump or reservoir for the Tank.

 

It also has a natty T-piece used for the return supply.

This means the fuel returning from the metering unit can replenish the reservoir, so there is never any air locks and any excess fuel will flow via the other end of the t-piece back into the tank

From my understanding of modern Diesel engines the Filter will be well able to deal with a large drawer of fuel from it as the Diesel pump would be feeding it at a similar pressure to the PI System. Therefore the TR's Bosch Pump will have a good free flowing supply with little to no restrictions.

 

I'm open to any criticisms. So let me know if you think this'll not work but I'm very confident it will.

 

I'll let you know how it goes and might start selling it as a kit on Ebay to soften my Fuel BILL

 

 

 

Hi Chaps,

Sorry to have not replied before. Looks like ive missed a lot of fun on this one. 2:15 in the morning and just got home from a plant breakdown. Bit to late to get my head around this. But in short I have a company working on and alternative motor to fit to the Lucas pump. This may include a forced cooling fan. This system is quite common on factory machinery. Alternatively impellor and expellor fans can run on very low current and move good quantities of air. Ducting is also being considered.

 

Night Night

 

Oily

[Andy Moltu]

Why re-invent the wheel?

Bosch set ups work fine & should be cheap.

If it doesn't then perhaps something is wrong - such as fuel pressure regulation or other obstruction.

[oily]

Why re-invent the wheel?

Bosch set ups work fine & should be cheap.

If it doesn't then perhaps something is wrong - such as fuel pressure regulation or other obstruction.

 

 

It would be great if everything that went onto a car was perfect and eutopia ruled the day regardless of purchase, development, and marketing costs. Alas we cant all afford those sort of cars. Butt end is that sometimes we get landed with components that are the best available at the time taking into account the supply cost. Then its down to the enthusiast owner to try and get the best out of the car. If this means altering or replacing parts then great. Look at this forum. It is full of people looking to maintain or upgrade. Half the pleasure of ownership is centered around this, and it keeps the marque alive and vibrant by keeping people talking.

Try to fit a better motor to a Lucas pump, Improve the flow rate through a Bosch pump, fit better filtering. Go for it. If it doesnt work, what the hell, its been fun and interesting. If it does work, share it to help others on the forum.

 

My pennies worth

 

 

Best regards

 

 

Noel

[Richard Crawley]

Why re-invent the wheel?

Bosch set ups work fine & should be cheap.

If it doesn't then perhaps something is wrong - such as fuel pressure regulation or other obstruction.

According to information I have come across, Bosch installations are not necessarily the redeeming saviour they appear to be! Some, it seems, don’t provide the required fuel pressure/flow rate, resulting in reduced performance - is this down to the type of pump? Others also experience cavitation problems with this unit + it seems Bosch pumps don’t suck very well, requiring other mods!

 

I don’t really see the point in replacing one troublesome system for another that could give me just as many problems! If I could be 100% certain then Bosch was the way to go, I would; after all, I don’t particularly like not knowing when next I will have to sit in some lay-by waiting for the bloody Lucas to cool down!

[TIMS]

Guys

 

As ever, horses for courses.

 

I don't have the time or technical know how to reinvent anything, and certainly not so critical to enjoyable use of the car as the fuel pump and its anciliaries.

 

Car went directly to Malcolm Jones at Prestige who fitted: larger tank outlet, pre filter, bosch pump, post filter, harmonically tested for length feed to the PRV, rebuilt the PRV and pressure tested it.

 

This year he rebuilt the MU to match the new cam fitted at the engine rebuild.

 

Weekend before last, not cool weather by any imagining, we motorway'd to Dover at 80+ then autoroute to Laon and returned the same way after 3 days of touring on narrow lanes in hot weather at low speeds. 1000 miles + and not a flutter from the PI system.

 

As has been said before you will struggle to better a well set up PI system. And with the system I have I don't sit in a layby waiting for pumps to cool.

 

Yes, I could have got it cheaper by putting my own system together, and might have got great satisfaction from so doing, but I want the goodwill of the other half to enable me to propose the long distance regular use of the car. That is worth every penny of the savings I didn't make.

 

As I said, horses for courses.

 

Regards

 

Tim

 

NB No I am not related in any way to Malcolm Jones.

[Goswell]

I'm running with a Facet pump (From Cambridge Motors sports) and paper filter, before the main fuel filter. feeding the Lucas Pump.

Reduces the power consumption of the Lucas pump by 17%, which must convert into a reduction in heat.

Facet pump and filter stops any problems with Left handed bends, as I running on the early tank.

[oily]

Hi Richard CR,

Sorry to have taken so long to reply. Thrashing around the counrtyside, work, callouts, and James 3rd birthday blah blah blah. Right OK and this is what happened. The engine in my 6 is a tuned unit just built and fitted by TR Enterprises. Now these guys know their stuff. They have the competition results to prove it. Over the course of a year they with myself involved have completely rebuilt the junkyard dog. Everything but every thing has been replaced with new or recon parts. Uprated where budget allows. During the course of the rebuild any items that have historically proved to be unreliable have been looked at with a view to replace or improve. We had several debates about the pump. TRE favour the Lucas unit it seems for the fact that a. it sucks petrol from the tank as opposed to flooded suction, b. its design is less restrictive to flow, c. the bosch is working at the extreems of its design limit. In respect i hope i have represented their veiws correctly and apologies if i have got it wrong. But in the back of my mind are all the people who are infavour of the bosch unit, my main concern being the overheating of the Lucas.

The opportunity came up to purchase a brand new Bosch exterior mount pump assembly. Manufactured by top people. No names because i dont want to upset them, but a good company. A little reluctantly it was fitted. Road test day came. Well i was chuffed to start with but the car seemed to be holding back. The Lucas unit was refitted and the whole performance was altered, and massively better. For me that was the end of the story. Fitting scavenger pumps to support the Bosch etc was getting far to complex.

 

In mind still was the reliability of the motor. The pump is fine and does a great job and is reliable. But that motor that drives it was still in question. What to do?. My company is involved with the installation repair and maintenance of plant equipment in bakeries. The technology in these places is actually quite sophisticated. Firstly it is not uncommon for electric motors to run quite slowly and forced cooling fans are often fitted to these to cool them down. On further investigation i found that these can be obtained with very very low current draws on 12v supplies and still shift a good quantity of air. Secondly 12v DC motors are also used though not so extensively. Bottom line is that the stuff is available. Next was to approach the company that i use to supply and rewind electric motors. Yes they are game for it. Next week they are being supplied with two pump units to work on and draw up specs from. getting the motor to fit the pump will require some sort of adaptor so next stop the machine shop.

 

Time will tell.

 

Best regards

 

Noel.

 

 

PS Anybody want to buy a bosch pump and filter assembly with only 10 miles on it.?

Edited June 18, 2006 by oily

[raydrink]

Geoff,

I have the Revington Bosch set-up (their part number RTR 4050) which has the glass filter before the pump and I assume the other cylindrical thing is a more beefy filter after the pump. Pump and filters are sited in the wheel well as per Revington's photos on their web site.

 

I don't have any issues with fuel flow under normal conditions and assume this is a tried and tested set-up - indeed the invoice provided by the previous owner shows this configuration was bought in the 90's.

 

However, like you, I do have the dreaded starvation when going round a sharp bend when the fuel is low (car is TR5 with standard fuel tank). I don't want to go to the expense of buying another tank, complete with baffles, but it struck me that the old CAV filter would act as a reservoir and could be used instead of the glass one, maybe eliminating the fuel starvation. Common sense also tells me that this has probably been tried and discarded many moons ago. Does anyone have this set-up and managed to get rid of the left-hand bend syndrome? Or any other simple solution utilising the Bosch pump for that matter?

 

I await your trials with the VW diesel filter with interest.

 

regards

Ray

Edited June 18, 2006 by raydrink

[jonlar]

Hi Noel, I think Revington TR used to market a square section copper tube coil through which fuel was pumped to assist cooling the electric motor part of the pump, but can't find it anymore on their website - I think it was around £35 - £40.

[saffrontr]

Ray,

Triumph were well aware of the fuel starvation experienced on left hand bends and gave the Dealers details of how to overcome this in one of their Newsletters no 211 of 27th June 1969. This comprised of a diversion of the fuel return from the pressure relief valve to fuel tank via a T piece back to the filter thereby ensuring a continuous supply of fuel. Send me an email and I will scan and send a copy of the newsletter by return. This mod of course does assume that you have a CAV filter although presumably it would work with any filter.

Cheers

Derek

saffrontr@tiscali.co.uk

[oily]

Hi Jonlar

i have looked at the cooling tube. Using petrol to cool the pump motor. I would like to hear peoples comments on this system. I have seen them, but i just have a nagging doubt about how good it really is.

 

Alec

I ran an Audi 2.2E for some years. Loved it to bits. And i would have another one. Pump was never a problem. But i would have thought that they ran at much lower pressure. Will start a new thread on the forum about the pump motor mod when things are underway.

 

Thanks for the interest chaps.

 

Noel

[Richard Crawley]

i have looked at the cooling tube. Using petrol to cool the pump motor. I would like to hear peoples comments on this system. I have seen them, but i just have a nagging doubt about how good it really is.

 

Noel

Noel

Re the cooling tube; this was a popular mod some years ago but, like you, I’m not sure how successful it was back then. I think it’s likely to be even less effective with more volatile modern fuels as the temperature in the tank would rise considerably & many of us have already made the link between the rising temperature of fuel in the tank (the result of metering unit return flow) & when fuel starts to evaporate in the Lucas pump causing cavitation – i.e. I always try to keep the tank at least ½ full & this certainly seems to delay the onset, although in high ambient temperatures it doesn’t prevent it all together!

[Andy Moltu]

Ray,

Triumph were well aware of the fuel starvation experienced on left hand bends and gave the Dealers details of how to overcome this in one of their Newsletters no 211 of 27th June 1969. This comprised of a diversion of the fuel return from the pressure relief valve to fuel tank via a T piece back to the filter thereby ensuring a continuous supply of fuel. Send me an email and I will scan and send a copy of the newsletter by return. This mod of course does assume that you have a CAV filter although presumably it would work with any filter.

Cheers

Derek

saffrontr@tiscali.co.uk

 

& It didn't work with the CAV filter because the feed to the tank comes from the top of the filter and so as soon as the pump looses priming pressure or sucks in air nothing returns via the PRV because the fuel pressure drops below PRV opening pressure there is no return fuel to recycle. It would have work if the CAV filter took the fuel from the bottom of the filter so it could tolerate briefly interupted fuel supply caused by cornering.

[raydrink]

& It didn't work with the CAV filter because the feed to the tank comes from the top of the filter and so as soon as the pump looses priming pressure or sucks in air nothing returns via the PRV because the fuel pressure drops below PRV opening pressure there is no return fuel to recycle. It would have work if the CAV filter took the fuel from the bottom of the filter so it could tolerate briefly interupted fuel supply caused by cornering.

 

Hi Andy,

 

My revised thinking on the use of the CAV filter is to remove the innards so it is only a cannister, drill and tap a vent hole in the bottom, invert it and 'T' the new vent pipe somewhere high up (!). If I mount it in the opposite corner to the Bosch pump (RHS), leave the glass pre-filter in place then it will act as a small reservoir for use in those cornering moments.

 

Now that I've had one apart it is clear that when mounted the normal way up the fuel outlet is only about 0.5" lower than the inlet, both being at the top, so unless it is upside down then there will be no reservoir effect - not to a Bosch pump that I understand has no sucking power.

 

To all those of you that prefer the Lucas set-up, I have no opinion one way or the othere re which is best, it's just that my car was bought with the Revington Bosch kit and I'd rather try and make that work better, than go back to Lucas.

 

If you think I'm losing my marbles please tell me.... but be gentle.

 

thanks

Ray

[Andy Moltu]

My revised thinking on the use of the CAV filter is to remove the innards so it is only a cannister, drill and tap a vent hole in the bottom, invert it and 'T' the new vent pipe somewhere high up (!). If I mount it in the opposite corner to the Bosch pump (RHS), leave the glass pre-filter in place then it will act as a small reservoir for use in those cornering moments.

 

Now that I've had one apart it is clear that when mounted the normal way up the fuel outlet is only about 0.5" lower than the inlet, both being at the top, so unless it is upside down then there will be no reservoir effect - not to a Bosch pump that I understand has no sucking power.

 

If you think I'm losing my marbles please tell me.... but be gentle.

 

thanks

Ray

 

I've had an ali canister made up to draw fuel from the bottom. It effectively does what you are going to with the inverted cav filter. It's acually done but a mix up over the pipe bores means that he'll need to modify it slightly before I fit it.

[raydrink]

I guess other cars have fuel delivery issues as well................

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FUEL-PUMP-BOSCH-FUEL...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

In case the full URL doesn't come out, it is eBay item number 4651557900

 

Ray

[Guest GeoffWalker]

Geoff,

I have the Revington Bosch set-up (their part number RTR 4050) which has the glass filter before the pump and I assume the other cylindrical thing is a more beefy filter after the pump. Pump and filters are sited in the wheel well as per Revington's photos on their web site.

 

I don't have any issues with fuel flow under normal conditions and assume this is a tried and tested set-up - indeed the invoice provided by the previous owner shows this configuration was bought in the 90's.

 

However, like you, I do have the dreaded starvation when going round a sharp bend when the fuel is low (car is TR5 with standard fuel tank). I don't want to go to the expense of buying another tank, complete with baffles, but it struck me that the old CAV filter would act as a reservoir and could be used instead of the glass one, maybe eliminating the fuel starvation. Common sense also tells me that this has probably been tried and discarded many moons ago. Does anyone have this set-up and managed to get rid of the left-hand bend syndrome? Or any other simple solution utilising the Bosch pump for that matter?

 

I await your trials with the VW diesel filter with interest.

 

regards

Ray

 

Hello Ray,

 

I've fitted the VW Diesel filter and so far so good. It really is a nice setup. I have the Bosch Pump mounted vertically with the new Prepump filter sitting snugly just behind it.

I can't do the 1/4 tank test yet because soon after fitting the filter I decided to do teh Prop shaft UJ's.

 

I'll let you know how it drives and if there is any fuel starvation. I might even post some photos.

 

Regards,

 

Geoff

[Vitesse Jason]

Does anyone have a part number and supplier for the infamous square section tube cooling coil?

 

Thanks

 

 

J

[Guest GeoffWalker]

Hello Ray,

 

I've fitted the VW Diesel filter and so far so good. It really is a nice setup. I have the Bosch Pump mounted vertically with the new Prepump filter sitting snugly just behind it.

I can't do the 1/4 tank test yet because soon after fitting the filter I decided to do teh Prop shaft UJ's.

 

I'll let you know how it drives and if there is any fuel starvation. I might even post some photos.

 

Regards,

 

Geoff

 

FYI,

 

The above setup didn't improve matters. It actually made things worse.

Whilst driving the car hard back from Classic Le Man the engine started to misfire when overtaking on the autoroute to Roscoff. We pulled over and the engine died completely. Within 20 minutes I had worked out ignition was very good and the Pump was fine so it had to be fuel starvation prior to the pump. So out came all the luggage and the spare wheel and out came my new fangled filter. 10 minutes later much to the delight of Rachel (The better half) Jasmine fired up on all six with no misfire. So on we went!

So back to the drawing board.

 

Could I just add. I've been to six contemporary Le Man events and the Classic Le Mans was better than them all. It's 42 euro for the 3 day event. You don't have to book the tickets in advance and if clever you can get two cars in for the price of one 70 euroes to the Karting Nord campsite. Which has excellent facilities and is right next to the track. so good trackside views.

All the Grandstands are free and pit enty is only 20 euros if you're are member of the ACO.

 

Next Classic Lemans is in Japan.

It's held in Le Mans every secon year. so put the one 2008 in you're diaries.

My goal was to finish my TR6 restoration for the one last week and thankfully for once I achieved that goal.

 

Regards,

 

Geoff

 

Car: YZO 40 Jasmine yellow TR6 with an intoxicating sound track.