TR4 Block questions

[aterro]

Hi all, 

 

ive cleaned up my block and I’ve notice two issues. Pictures in the links. 
 

1) where the liners meet the block, there is corrosion, will this cause any issues with sealing or should I get it skimmed? Also what headgasket would you recommend? 

2) the figure of 8. There is marks where the gasket will go. People have said use jb weld? Can someone also explain how you get protrusion on the liner height correct when you need to use sealant? Or just use welseal after a dry check protrusion check?
 

Thank you 
 

https://ibb.co/2qGmw1T
https://ibb.co/L9R1d4F

[Motorsport Mickey]

If you want detailed "How to fit new liners" threads use the search box entering "Liners", there's at least 8 separate threads ( I know I posted them) with hundreds of posts which describe in detail how to carry out these actions. 

Short answer to your queries above  

1) where the liners meet the block, there is corrosion, will this cause any issues with sealing or should I get it skimmed? …………….If you are talking about the block "deck" where the liners fit in, try using 80 grit wet and dry on a flat block and cleaning up the deck where the "corrosion" is (is the corrosion heavy rust or the more usual dark staining ?.  if you decide to have it skimmed ask the engineering shop to set up to the Liner shoulders inside the block and not just drop the block onto the bottom face and skim the top of it (it's likely it will be off...it's 60 years old ! 

Also what headgasket would you recommend?...……....The headgasket depends upon what you are going to do with the engine, liner size racing or road use etc let us know and we can suggest.   

2) the figure of 8. There is marks where the gasket will go. People have said use jb weld? ............ The marks look like they are gouges going into what we call the Liner spigot shoulder ....correct ? if so as suggested clean of any burr or lifted surface around them and fill with J B Weld let it harden and smooth it off level with the shoulder.   

Can someone also explain how you get protrusion on the liner height correct when you need to use sealant? Or just use welseal after a dry check protrusion check? ……….detailed instructions on how to do this are on the "How to fit new liners" threads mentioned above. If you read them I'm sure all your questions will be answered, if not ask if unsure when you give the answers to the head gasket query.

Mick Richards

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Those digs look more like chisel tip marks than corrosion.   Are they flat to the surface?

Possible approaches are sealant, fill with Araldite or JB weld and file smooth or get all liner seats recut and liners shortened to match and re deck the piston crowns to get compression back ito where you want it.

Check for burrs.  Try liners in without fig 8 and measure.  Buy fig 8 to give 0.004-0.006" protrusion.  Copper ones seem to be slightly thicker than shim steel.  There are other sizes available or some have made their own.  Assemble without sealant  & fit head and torque down to 75 ft lbs remove head and re measure liner protrusion.  They need to be all the same and not tilted.  Selective assembly may come into play here.

We all tend to use wellseal, I suspect a modern rtv sealant could be used but may be a horror to get to bits in the future.   Always initially clamp with torqued down head once assembled while setting the sealant, then retain with liner retainers.  Old head gasket is fitted while clamping for even clamping force.

Mick will be along in a moment with his excellent instruction on this matter.

Original type Head gaskets are fairly standard if you have a standard spec engine.  I'd upto 87 mm and the head not overly shaved so the valve shroud has been removed.     There are modern composite type with rubber rings on the water sealing surfaces for both standard engines and big bore types.   You need to review your engine spec to select what is right. Steel shim head gaskets ( the racer's choice) have almost disappeared from sale now.

 

Deleted as Mick has said all this above.

Peter W

Edited June 21, 2020 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[aterro]

1 hour ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

If you want detailed "How to fit new liners" threads use the search box entering "Liners", there's at least 8 separate threads ( I know I posted them) with hundreds of posts which describe in detail how to carry out these actions. 

Short answer to your queries above  

1) where the liners meet the block, there is corrosion, will this cause any issues with sealing or should I get it skimmed? …………….If you are talking about the block "deck" where the liners fit in, try using 80 grit wet and dry on a flat block and cleaning up the deck where the "corrosion" is (is the corrosion heavy rust or the more usual dark staining ?.  if you decide to have it skimmed ask the engineering shop to set up to the Liner shoulders inside the block and not just drop the block onto the bottom face and skim the top of it (it's likely it will be off...it's 60 years old ! It’s definitely corrosion. There is two links with two photos, but I had just cleaned up the block so still looks wet. I don’t see how a headgasket will seal well with the pitting. I am not sure what you mean by get them to set up liner shoulders inside the block? Can you explain please?

Also what headgasket would you recommend?...……....The headgasket depends upon what you are going to do with the engine, liner size racing or road use etc let us know and we can suggest.   89mm liners and pistons from moss is what I’m planning to buyIt will be a fast road car.

2) the figure of 8. There is marks where the gasket will go. People have said use jb weld? ............ The marks look like they are gouges going into what we call the Liner spigot shoulder ....correct ? if so as suggested clean of any burr or lifted surface around them and fill with J B Weld let it harden and smooth it off level with the shoulder.  That’s correct

Can someone also explain how you get protrusion on the liner height correct when you need to use sealant? Or just use welseal after a dry check protrusion check? ……….detailed instructions on how to do this are on the "How to fit new liners" threads mentioned above. If you read them I'm sure all your questions will be answered, if not ask if unsure when you give the answers to the head gasket query. I have read these, but im concerned that using sealant will create issues with protrusion heights? Wouldn’t it be ok to use big m14 penny washers to hold down liners rather than head and gasket? 

Mick Richards

 

I have added my comments above and underlined. Thank you in advance. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by aterro

[RogerH]

Hi Arerro,

the triangular marks in the first pic do not look like corrosion. However whatever they are the Fo8 seal should work OK.

As mentioned the small cavities could be leveled off with JBWeld.

The corrosion on the block top surface doesn't look like a show stopper. Was the gasket working OK before it was all taken apart.

If you are worried then the block could be skimmed and do the head at the same time.

As mentioned above you may need to skim the pistons to maintain the CR.

The various Fo8 materials are steel at 0.015",  Ali at 0.018" and copper at 0.022"   Steel is readily available, Copper less so and Ali is getting quite rare.

 

God luck

 

Roger 

[Motorsport Mickey]

16 hours ago, aterro said:

It’s definitely corrosion. There is two links with two photos, but I had just cleaned up the block so still looks wet. I don’t see how a headgasket will seal well with the pitting. ….As answered by Roger above.

I am not sure what you mean by get them to set up liner shoulders inside the block? Can you explain please?....The liners slide into the block...yes ? where the liner shoulders sit (the area where you have the gouges on the Figure of 8 surfaces) the block should be set up so that front liner shoulder on number 1 cylinder and the rear liner shoulder on number 4 cylinder is parallel and then the block deck surface lightly skimmed (little as possible). 

 89mm liners and pistons from moss is what I’m planning to buyIt will be a fast road car....OK so standard composite asbestos gasket no good so a composite gasket for 89mm liners or solid copper gasket to be used. You can check out all the specialists for the best price (TR Enterprises for example, other specialists are available) I assume the easiest would be the composite gasket, the copper may require more work. 

. I have read these, Liner posts but im concerned that using sealant will create issues with protrusion heights? Wouldn’t it be ok to use big m14 penny washers to hold down liners rather than head and gasket?...  NO definitely not. I guarantee that after you have applied 105 lb ft torque to the head there will NOT be a problem with the Figure of 8 sealant (I'd recommend Wellseal, but it has to go on EVERY surface...that's 4 surfaces...no short cuts...they don't work. Sealant on the block shoulder Fo8, sealant on the Fo8 gasket lower surface, sealant on the Fo8 gasket upper surface and sealant on the liner shoulder Fo8 surface.

.....Shorthand fitment schedule on the first fit. 

clean block and shoulder, NO Fo8 GASKET,

fit Fo8 gasket dry, (your choice but I ALWAYS USE COPPER) make sure no burrs or bit's of grit under it

fit liners dry, they are slide fit into the block 

fit old cleaned copper head gasket

and then fit the head.

Torque down to 105 lb ft ( do it in 3 pulls, 50/80/105 ) The copper Fo8 don't compress a damn.

Remove head and then secure the liners in place where they siamese OO OO with big washers overlapping with tube on top and fix by the cylinder head studs. about 40lbs will do just enough to stop liners flexing upwards.

Measure the liner protrusions above the cylinder block - 4 measurements around the liner ( I use a micrometre, but feeler gauges are ok if yoiu are good with them) write onto liner top in fibre tip. These liner positions should not then be altered, no swapping unintentionally or twisting their orientation unless it's deliberate. 

You need 3.3.3.3 or 4.4.4.4 or 5.5.5.5 protrusion

If the liners are up too much they need skimming down to the correct height to give the above

If they are down then either fit thicker Fo8 or have the block Fo8 shoulders skimmed to give correct height.

Redo the above when happy but add the Wellseal to the surfaces and a new gasket and then do the final torqueing, if it doesn't all measure up as expected...stop and look for grit fallin in or other problem, I normally expect at least 3 fits befor I'm happy. 

Mick Richards

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Motorsport Mickey

[Ian Vincent]

15 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Arerro,

the triangular marks in the first pic do not look like corrosion. However whatever they are the Fo8 seal should work OK.

As mentioned the small cavities could be leveled off with JBWeld.

The corrosion on the block top surface doesn't look like a show stopper. Was the gasket working OK before it was all taken apart.

If you are worried then the block could be skimmed and do the head at the same time.

As mentioned above you may need to skim the pistons to maintain the CR.

The various Fo8 materials are steel at 0.015",  Ali at 0.018" and copper at 0.022"   Steel is readily available, Copper less so and Ali is getting quite rare.

 

God luck

 

Roger 

Roger, from my experience you have the Ali and copper thicknesses the wrong way round. All the copper ones I have bought have been 18 thou thick. 

Rgds Ian

[RogerH]

2 hours ago, Ian Vincent said:

Roger, from my experience you have the Ali and copper thicknesses the wrong way round. All the copper ones I have bought have been 18 thou thick. 

Rgds Ian

it was only a guess  

 

Roger

[aterro]

Hi all, thank you

last question, what cylinder liner tool do you use to remove liners easily?

thanks in advance.