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Slave TRade Statues - your views.


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1 hour ago, Bleednipple said:

One guess for what it's worth: the original publican may have served under Havelock in India. I believe it was fairly common for ex-soldiers or sailors to give the name of 'their' general or admiral to a pub when they took it over. The Sir Charles Napier is an example not far from me. The Marquis of Granby, a general in the Seven Years War, was noted for his philanthropy to ex-servicemen and so has numerous pubs named after him.

More widely, the Victorian liking for lionising those they thought as meritable was applied to many street names and house names. Our house's original name in the 1860s was Adeleide Villa, almost certainly after Queen Adelaide (wife of William IV) who was apparently still publicly revered decades after her death.

Nigel

Yes good thinking. I was also thinking about this again and there used to be a Barracks very near the location of the pub. I have other Ancestors who were posted to India and other parts of the world from this area, I wonder if Henry Havelock had anything to do with the Barracks or the Regiments who were stationed there. 
some research on my part required here.

Edited by SuzanneH
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36 minutes ago, SuzanneH said:

Yes good thinking. I was also thinking about this again and there used to be a Barracks very near the location of the pub. I have other Ancestors who were posted to India and other parts of the world from this area, I wonder if Henry Havelock had anything to do with the Barracks or the Regiments who were stationed there. 
some research on my part required here.

If you mean the barracks at Hounslow, I believe they were mainly used as cavalry barracks. Henry Havelock was a light infantryman (95th Regiment) before he went to India so that doesn't obviously fit. While in India during the Indian Rebellion (what used to be termed the Mutiny) he commanded the relief column at the Siege of Lucknow that comprised only a single Crown (ie British - as opposed to Sikh) unit, it looks like that was a Scots battalion but the 95th Regiment which was Havelock's old unit as a young officer was also involved from what I can see. But the pub landlord might have served in one or any of the many other units in India at the same time, and revered Havelock as one of the heroes - from the British perspective - of the whole campaign.

But that's all speculation. Next step would be to know something of the landlord and his family background - most British Army regiments at that time had strong regional/county ties.

Nigel

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2 hours ago, Bleednipple said:

If you mean the barracks at Hounslow, I believe they were mainly used as cavalry barracks. Henry Havelock was a light infantryman (95th Regiment) before he went to India so that doesn't obviously fit. While in India during the Indian Rebellion (what used to be termed the Mutiny) he commanded the relief column at the Siege of Lucknow that comprised only a single Crown (ie British - as opposed to Sikh) unit, it looks like that was a Scots battalion but the 95th Regiment which was Havelock's old unit as a young officer was also involved from what I can see. But the pub landlord might have served in one or any of the many other units in India at the same time, and revered Havelock as one of the heroes - from the British perspective - of the whole campaign.

But that's all speculation. Next step would be to know something of the landlord and his family background - most British Army regiments at that time had strong regional/county ties.

Nigel

No not Hounslow Barracks bur North Hyde Barracks Heston/Southall/Hayes. See below from a local historian.

Joseph and Francis Embury 1841 Census: Right;-Suzanne re:your note about your grandfather and 'Westbrooks' Cottages, Barracks Yard. Firstly you have your sights set on 'Hounslow Barracks', which although in the early years did come under the Parish of Heston. BUT this is not the Barracks re:your grandfather. You will see from the plan I have posted the area at the end of Southall Lane at North Hyde, was from 1864 St. Mary's Orphanage for Boys, the buildings were original Barrack buildings known as 'His Majesty's Infantry Barracks, North Hyde' in the Parish of Heston. They were built in 1799 on the impending invasion by Napoleon and covered an area right across where Convent Way now is. At it's height their were in excess of 450.000 kegs of gunpowder stored there. It ceased use as a Barracks in 1815 and all the land around was eventually owned by the Westbrook family of brickmakers, all brickfields around there. You will see from the plan the entrance was via Barrack Row, and you will see a short row of cottages along the entrance which were originally Clerk's cottages, but by the time of the Brickfields were occupied by some of the workers, who affectionately referred to them as 'Westbrooks' Cottages, as it was he who owned them. Barrack Yard was at the back. The Westbrook family held a lot of land around Heston i.e. Westbrook House itself, stood where the Rosary School now stands, the Westbrook Memorial Hall at Heston was built by Edward Westbook's widow in his memory and the present Westbrook Rd. is named after them. The brickfields covered a huge area right across to the 'OLD' North Star which once stood just on the eastern edge as you turn into Convent Way out of North Hyde Rd. it was there that the 'Skintlers' (Foremen Brickmakers) collected their wages. The site on the plan was later developed as International Aeradio and BEA and now mainly industrial and the Airlinks Golf Links. Here endeth the history lesson, hope it helps.

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Although this thread is moving away somewhat from the original post I thought it might be worth noting here of how streets get names.  When I served on the district council and new housing development would require possible street names to be submitted to the authority.  In district where I lived there used to be a former RAF airfiled which like so many others has now been turned into a housing estate.  In order to keep and show some link to the past many of the the service roads leading to the industrial part of the estate were named after RAF bombers, hence Lancaster Avenue, Wellington Way etc.   (even though Lancaster's never flew from there)  On the housing part of the development names were sourced from the graves of former RAF personal who were buried in the local church yard.  This was done at the behest of the local parish council who preferred to honour the dead rather than go along with the names that were put forward by the developers. ie Poppy Fields,  Wisteria Way,  etc. The irony of naming roads and housing estates after the countryside seems rather lost on developers who  have just concreted over it! 

hoges. 

PS. and now someone has taken 'offence' to 'Penny Lane' in Liverpool and wants it removed because it might  be linked to a former slave owner 200 years ago.  Never mind the joy and happiness created by the Beatles song  for which is what people today link it to. 

Edited by Paul Hogan
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I lived at one end of Penny  Lane in the 70s. The metal sign bearing its name was stolen so often that the name had to be painted on the wall. It is still a popular tourist attraction, and the global reach of Beatles fandom will I expect win the day.

 

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Paul Hogan mentioned the Congo as an example of Black on Black atrocities. Rwanda being another, but you don't need to look that far back in history. Look at the International news and see what  is happening in Burkina Faso, Northern Nigeria and Mali at this moment in time.

 There is deep unrest in most parts of West Africa at the moment, and it is Black on Black. Some of the problems are due to ISIS, Boko Haram and other radical groups, but a lot of it is purely Tribal conflict. There is little respect between different tribes, and especially between people who have moved in from another African country, as can be seen by the xenophobia that takes place in South Africa.

The way I see the ethnic minority reacting to our Police, like the incident in Hackney the other day, makes my blood boil. If such a thing took place In Africa between the public and the Police, I know for certain who would come out the worst, and the Courts would have no sympathy for them if it got that far.

I have worked around West Africa for the past 22yrs, so have seen all of what I have mentioned above in the flesh. I am currently in Ghana at the moment, and a lot of the people here can't understand what all the fuss is about in the UK at the moment and think our Government should get tough with people destroying our statues etc.

How George Floyd died was disgusting and should never have happened, but it is no excuse for what is happening in the UK at the moment. Our Police are no Angels and there are a few plonkers amongst them, but in general they are a very professional force. I know which ones I would prefer to deal with between the American Para military Police force our our PC Plod.

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We should not judge those in the past by our standards and morals.  By all means take these things in context.

Slavery wasn’t something the cotton and sugar trade invented but it was part of our written history.

The Egyptians, Roman and Greek civilisations did it. The vikings did it. The Nazis did it. 

Learn from history don’t destroy the distasteful evidence.

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1 hour ago, Phil S said:

Paul Hogan mentioned the Congo as an example of Black on Black atrocities. Rwanda being another, but you don't need to look that far back in history. Look at the International news and see what  is happening in Burkina Faso, Northern Nigeria and Mali at this moment in time.

 There is deep unrest in most parts of West Africa at the moment, and it is Black on Black. Some of the problems are due to ISIS, Boko Haram and other radical groups, but a lot of it is purely Tribal conflict. There is little respect between different tribes, and especially between people who have moved in from another African country, as can be seen by the xenophobia that takes place in South Africa.

The way I see the ethnic minority reacting to our Police, like the incident in Hackney the other day, makes my blood boil. If such a thing took place In Africa between the public and the Police, I know for certain who would come out the worst, and the Courts would have no sympathy for them if it got that far.

I have worked around West Africa for the past 22yrs, so have seen all of what I have mentioned above in the flesh. I am currently in Ghana at the moment, and a lot of the people here can't understand what all the fuss is about in the UK at the moment and think our Government should get tough with people destroying our statues etc.

How George Floyd died was disgusting and should never have happened, but it is no excuse for what is happening in the UK at the moment. Our Police are no Angels and there are a few plonkers amongst them, but in general they are a very professional force. I know which ones I would prefer to deal with between the American Para military Police force our our PC Plod.

The BLM protests in the UK are partly to do with unequal treatment of ethnic minorities by the police in this country although, quite clearly,  they are much more widely a backlash against persistent racialised inequalities across many dimensions of British society.  Most of the people who are protesting in the UK at the moment may have had ancestors who came from different parts of the world, but they are as British as you (I assume) or me. So what has how the police or the courts behave in Nigeria or Mali or Ghana today got to do with anything? 

Nigel 

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33 minutes ago, Andy Moltu said:

We should not judge those in the past by our standards and morals.  By all means take these things in context.

Slavery wasn’t something the cotton and sugar trade invented but it was part of our written history.

The Egyptians, Roman and Greek civilisations did it. The vikings did it. The Nazis did it. 

Learn from history don’t destroy the distasteful evidence.

Many of these statues were erected and still are presented in a way that does not recognise any distasteful evidence whatsoever.

I would personally favour that they are moved to museums where they can be placed together with their full context with the distateful evidence. However, this should be done on the basis of the relevant community deciding that it is appropriate considering the balance of the inidividual's good works against their darker side. On that basis only a tiny minority would want Winston Churchill's statue moved. A larger minority might want Baden Powell's statue moved, but I would not expect a majority.

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Nigel,

I don't agree with your statement " unequal treatment of ethnic minorities", accepting that there are 200,000'ish police  and there must be a range of approaches and behaviours, for me  your statement would be nearer the truth if it read " perceived unequal treatment of ethnic minorities".

I think that the police do a remarkable job in the face of a hostile approach by many of their customers.

 

Alan

 

 

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14 minutes ago, barkerwilliams said:

Nigel,

I don't agree with your statement " unequal treatment of ethnic minorities", accepting that there are 200,000'ish police  and there must be a range of approaches and behaviours, for me  your statement would be nearer the truth if it read " perceived unequal treatment of ethnic minorities".

I think that the police do a remarkable job in the face of a hostile approach by many of their customers.

 

Alan

 

 

+1 here 

 

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2 hours ago, Phil S said:

Some of the problems are due to ISIS, Boko Haram and other radical groups, but a lot of it is purely Tribal conflict. There is little respect between different tribes. [...]

I know which ones I would prefer to deal with between the American Para military Police force our our PC Plod.

I agree with Hoges and you about Africa. I have never been there myself, but discovered that in Congo, despite the civil war, the extraction of coltan by and for multinationals, used for mobile phones, has continued regardless. There are still foreign vested interests in Africa, despite the wave of independence from Western colonial powersbin the 1960s. And new international players, for example, China is increasingly present in different ways. That doesn't invalidate the point about tribal wars, but, as in South Africa and in Congo, there is other, lesser known international interference.

Edited by DavidBee
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44 minutes ago, barkerwilliams said:

Police ..."their customers?"

 

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Police are servants, public servants, although I guess they don’t see themselves as that. So not customers although as the public we pay them. 

Regarding Africa, this is not a criticism of the comments or questioning the correctness. I’m not so sure of the relevance though of Congo or how it relates to our situation here in the UK or how someone killed a black persons in the USA is reason to caused the appalling behaviour or even necessitates rallies during the Covid19. Neither is it a time for the government, local authorities or others to take have a knee jerk reaction.

It’s my feeling the  government needs to make it clear that we are not Instantly going to accept we are a racist country, we are not going to accept unlawful action. Stay at home means stay at home or the law will be enforced.  

Confirm clearly and positively the commons will Immediately look into where improvements need to be undertaken and make the relevant laws where necessary so changes can be made ensuring that no one in future is disadvantaged. Make it clear to the media too.



 

Edited by Derek Hurford
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I didn’t mention Orwell but he wanted to call the book 1948 but that was felt uncomfortable by the publishers as too close to the truth.

 

I wonder what Orwell would make of our Newspeak and Thoughtcrime. 1984 and some.

 

 

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David,

I don't need my homework marked by you thank you very much.

Please come up with your own thoughts and ideas, offer an alternative to my views but your only response seems to be denigration.

Just so sad,

Alan

 

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4 hours ago, DavidBee said:

 

Homework? Why take umbrage? I am just quoting the post verbatim. In point of fact, it is incorrect. Police don't have customers as such. They serve the nation, by upholding the law. Hardly the same as being shop assistants.

Edited by DavidBee
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4 hours ago, barkerwilliams said:

Nigel,

I don't agree with your statement " unequal treatment of ethnic minorities", accepting that there are 200,000'ish police  and there must be a range of approaches and behaviours, for me  your statement would be nearer the truth if it read " perceived unequal treatment of ethnic minorities".

I think that the police do a remarkable job in the face of a hostile approach by many of their customers.

 

Alan

 

 

Whether or not there is actual racial discrimination by the police wasn't the point of my post. But we'll all have our own personal views of whether or not it still exists, and certainly many of the the public thinks it does (40% yes, 24% no, 36% don't know - YouGov poll Apr 2020).

It's now 20 years since the Macpherson report which concluded that the Met Police was at that point "institutionally racist" and made 70 recommendations. While I'm personally optimistic that very many of them have been effectively implemented and a huge amount has changed, the "Twenty Years On" parliamentary enquiry was halted for the 2019 general election and hasn't been re-commenced, which I think is very regrettable.

Nigel

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Could someone explain something to me, quite a lot has been talked about Right wing thugs, and left wing activists in the streets of London. 

The videos I have seen now and in the past, both sides seemed to be trying to kick the hell out of each other. Is there an isum for the type of words used when describing one group of people in this context from another. 

They seem to me to be just as bad as each other,  but the inference would appear less threatening if you are on the left.

Is there an institutional isum here. In Britain, the media or between your political party?

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"Antagonists"  with "antagonism" the word you want?

Politics has a circular spectrum.  Go far enough to either extreme and you reach another -ism, fascism.

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I understand antagonist antagonism and fascist and fascism. 

What I don’t understand is when I hear recently those, part of the institution, refer to those from the far left, as activist, people wanting to bring about political or social change. With people from the far right as thugs. Violent even criminals. 

This seems disproportionate to me when and only when they are both following the same activity. 
Perhaps we need to find a word that applies equally to both groups. Perhaps the media, politicians or any person in a position of authority apply the same word to both camps. In this instance is Morons More Appropriate?

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3 minutes ago, Derek Hurford said:

I understand antagonist antagonism and fascist and fascism. 

What I don’t understand is when I hear recently those, part of the institution, refer to those from the far left, as activist, people wanting to bring about political or social change. With people from the far right as thugs. Violent even criminals. 

This seems disproportionate to me when and only when they are both following the same activity. 
Perhaps we need to find a word that applies equally to both groups. Perhaps the media, politicians or any person in a position of authority apply the same word to both camps. In this instance is Morons More Appropriate?

You don't say who you've noted to be using those terms Derek. My own impression for what it's worth has been that the broadsheet press and the broadcast media have been pretty careful about terminology: "activists" or "protesters" generally, and "violent protesters" when actual violence against other people has been observed (one might argue that causing criminal damage to statues etc is "violent" although personally I wouldn't use the term in that context).

As far as I've seen, the use of the term "thugs" has been limited to the tabloid press - and of course the PM and several other government ministers yesterday. You'd have to ask them why they choose the terms they do. 

Nigel

 

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27 minutes ago, Bleednipple said:

"thugs" has been limited to the tabloid press - and of course the PM and several other government ministers yesterday. You'd have to ask them why they choose the terms they do. Nigel

+1

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