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Slave TRade Statues - your views.


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2 hours ago, ntc said:

The mind boggles as to what all of this has done to the spread of Covid 19 :o 

Indeed. Sadly the BAME protestors are more at risk of severe COVID than there white co-protestors. Caucasians at northern latitudes have evolved over the past 20,000 years to survive here, BAME have not.

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Talking of racist tyrants:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin#/media/File:Idi_Amin_-Archives_New_Zealand_AAWV_23583,_KIRK1,_5(B),_R23930288.jpg

Caucasians do not have a monopoly on tyranny.

However it is useful to a nation at war to have a supply to hand of psycopaths, providing their peculiar talents can be directed. That may be the reason why psycopathy has not been eliminated from societies. They fight enemies better than us.....and run businesses better ( short-term.eg Fred the Shred). 

Peter

 

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3 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Caucasians do not have a monopoly

tyranny psycopathy

Agreed, Peter. Congo is an example.

Only psychopaths?

Hannah Arendt sought to prove that Adolf Eichmann was your average person; based on his very effective performance, as  ondescript pen pusher.

But recent scholarship uncovered documents that showed he was not. But was he a psychopath? Maybe, maybe not. I really don't know.

The lesser evil argument applies —but is it defensible?—  in other contexts, such as A Bombs in 1945, or Bomber Harris's carpet bombing tactic in Dresden, especially, with horrific results.

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2 hours ago, DavidBee said:

But woe betide us, if we just look on, claiming it is inevitable and do nothing like the UN in the 1990s, or everyone looked on, despite the fact that intelligence of what was happening had reached the West, when 3 million innocent (black) humans were massacred in Congo, a few years later.

Edited 1 hour ago by DavidBee

And who slaughtered the 3 million innocent ( black) humans in the Congo a few years ago?  Oh that would be the guilty ( black) humans then.   I'm probably wrong but I  don't recall any other African nations standing up for their fellow man  but I wasn't a UN/French peace keeping force deployed to the area? 

hoges 

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6 minutes ago, DavidBee said:

Agreed, Peter. Congo is an example.

Only psychopaths?

Hannah Arendt sought to prove that Adolf Eichmann was your average person; based on his very effective performance, as  ondescript pen pusher.

But recent scholarship uncovered documents that showed he was not. But was he a psychopath? Maybe, maybe not. I really don't know.

The lesser evil argument applies —but is it defensible?—  in other contexts, such as A Bombs in 1945, or Bomber Harris's carpet bombing tactic in Dresden, especially, with horrific results.

And why is Bomber Harris always trotted out as an example? There is never a mention of Curtis Le May who carpet bombed Japan with a firestorm that made Hamburg and Dresden look like a November 5th fire work party or Herman Goering who oversaw the indiscriminate bombing of Britain.  Moreover, given the technical inability of the RAF/USAAF to undertake precise bombing  throughout the war - its only recently that laser guided bombs have become available, what did we expect the RAF/USAAF to do?   Sit back and do nothing? 

Well, the Nazi's started  carpet bombing in Spain with its Condor Legion and developed it into blitzkrieg a few years later but as Harris famously said, "They have sowed the wind and now they will reap the whirlwind".

hoges. 

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19 minutes ago, Paul Hogan said:

And why is Bomber Harris always trotted out as an example? There is never a mention of Curtis Le May who carpet bombed Japan with a firestorm that made Hamburg and Dresden look like a November 5th fire work party or Herman Goering who oversaw the indiscriminate bombing of Britain.  Moreover, given the technical inability of the RAF/USAAF to undertake precise bombing  throughout the war - its only recently that laser guided bombs have become available, what did we expect the RAF/USAAF to do?   Sit back and do nothing? 

Well, the Nazi's started  carpet bombing in Spain with its Condor Legion and developed it into blitzkrieg a few years later but as Harris famously said, "They have sowed the wind and now they will reap the whirlwind".

hoges. 

Hoges, 

Please don't misunderstand me

I am not saying Bomber Harris as worst culprit. He is an example of "lesser evil" thinking.

As to the lack of intervention of other African nations, I couldn't agree with you more. It's an excellent point.

But not examples of human nature in a vague sense. Specific examples of what happened and is documented to have occurred in a context, each one with its own peculiarities. Tit for tat? Revenge? Tell that to the innocent civilians in each instance. All very troubling then and still today.

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9 hours ago, Geko said:

I wouldn't worry for the pigeons

Very interesting to see their map, thank you.

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To all

This discussion has to be one of the most in depth and interesting (outside of TR  topics) we have had on here , visiting varied associated topics on the way.

I would just like to remind everyone that we are an open  car forum and not Panorama , so please feel free to make your point but be careful that the content you post is not too graphic . There are so many areas that this topic can go to that can provide material which would be distressing to some . By this I am not thinking of the current snowflake obsession with being offended but true distress and upset.

Brian

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So now the luvvies have banned the Fawlty Towers  episode  'The Germans'  and the idiots have now removed the statue of Christopher Columbus. Well i wont mention the war but the grave of Guy Gibson's dog must be next on the hit list to re write history.   They will be banning the Dam Busters film next! 

hoges. 

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My old boss had a reputation as being a slave driver.  Is that an endorsable offence and if so how many points does he get? B)

hoges. 

Edited by Paul Hogan
spulling error !
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In the Liverpool Maritime Museum there are some chilling displays associated with the slave trade, including drawings of how they were packed into the ships - many on their sides, so they could be packed closer together on decks 18" apart.

It's hardly surprising that so many died on the journey.

Pete

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In Southall, my grandfather, grandmother and an infant child of theirs are buried in Havelock Road Cemetery , Ealing Council have been thinking about renaming this road to Guru Nanak Road because the largest Sikh Temple Gurdwara outside of India is in this Road..

Recent events have added weight to the renaming of the road, however an interestead Local has been investigating and has discovered that The Havelock Arms Public House predates the Road by quite a few years. In 1861 the road used to be called Feeder Lane which was probably a country lane leading to Brickfields and the Grand Junction Canal. The pub was probably where the Brickmakers were paid as this is usual, where there is a Brickfield there is usually a pub which was a pay office.

The researcher cannot find a link to connect Major General Sir Henry Havelock to Southall at all.

will this statue be the next to go or will they change the name of the road and maybe the Cemetery?

The Sihk  Community, hopefully will make the right decision.

C495A6E9-AF26-46FC-A730-7399EE3E1DE5.jpeg

37E25FEE-3AD7-4EC6-A73B-BE8BEE33F7AE.png

Edited by SuzanneH
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1984 has not been mentioned yet, so here goes:

Quote of the day...
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
From the novel Nineteen Eighty Four - George Orwell, first published in 1949.

Interesting times

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2 minutes ago, SuzanneH said:

1984 has not been mentioned yet, so here goes:

Quote of the day...
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
From the novel Nineteen Eighty Four - George Orwell, first published in 1949.

Interesting times

Been heavily quoted on Twitter for the last few days.

Stuart.

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2 hours ago, brian -r said:

...be careful that the content you post is not too graphic ... material which would be distressing to some... true distress and upset. Brian

I want to take responsibility and openly apologize for my part. I used to work in Holocaust related studies pertaining to looted art, and I got carried away, no doubt about it. It was insensitive of me.

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23 minutes ago, SuzanneH said:

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered... History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

Very apt, Sue. Forget the past and re-write it, by doing so. Can be done by destroying signs of it or through silence or by concentrating public attention on one event or action, to the detriment of others, equally or more important.

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On 6/9/2020 at 10:04 PM, Derek Hurford said:

on all the good will, the feeling that things need to  change will soon disappear,  if this continues Nothing will come of the  good will that currently exists and Public opinions will change again I believe for the worse, that will be a shame. 

 

It’s started, we have people camping out to stop statues being removed. Cancelled Protests Against racism, because of threats from others. This will not bring people together it’s already putting them in camps, groups at odds with each other. 

Pulling  down statues doesn't change our history, the really good or the really bad, we have a history as has every other country some good and bad. Bringing up our past or the past of others In a negative way won’t change a thing, the only way forward is to accept what went on remember it and learn from it. 

The media reference to right wing thugs or left wing thugs, whether white or black, left, right or centre will only widen the animosity and encourage more resentment. I actually believe on the whole we are a tolerant country in the main, clearly thousands try to get here every year. 

The first thing we need to do is establish order refuse to accept destruction of property or attacks on people. The police will need to do what’s required show authority but with restraint.  We then need to educate what’s happened why and without bias and learn. The media needs to show restraint also.


 

 

Edited by Derek Hurford
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1 hour ago, SuzanneH said:

The researcher cannot find a link to connect Major General Sir Henry Havelock to Southall at all.

One guess for what it's worth: the original publican may have served under Havelock in India. I believe it was fairly common for ex-soldiers or sailors to give the name of 'their' general or admiral to a pub when they took it over. The Sir Charles Napier is an example not far from me. The Marquis of Granby, a general in the Seven Years War, was noted for his philanthropy to ex-servicemen and so has numerous pubs named after him.

More widely, the Victorian liking for lionising those they thought as meritable was applied to many street names and house names. Our house's original name in the 1860s was Adeleide Villa, almost certainly after Queen Adelaide (wife of William IV) who was apparently still publicly revered decades after her death.

Nigel

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