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Slave TRade Statues - your views.


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41 minutes ago, Derek Hurford said:

I watch that, I felt uncomfortable too. I saw similarities here,  but I hope no one would accept that there has been the same degree of racism here.  The problem I fear is that there is an element that would wish to suggest that we are complicit to that degree. One person owning another person, it wasn’t that long ago a man was perceived to own his wife and the children she provided, in some cases they paid the man to take their female child off their hands.. Things have clearly changed, but some my say not far enough in the case of women and in certain cultures  often The change is much much slower if at all.

 I accept that there racism exists here,  but we are not a racist country. There has been degrees of racism In all countries through out the history and still is,  not just black on white, here in European too, countries where attempts of ethnic cleansing have been observed.

Perhaps after living in American my mother instilled in me the only difference between Black and brown coloured people and white coloured People is the pigment in there skin. My first sign of what I perceived as racism that struck me, was in the White Heart pub in Southall when attending my cousins wedding, I popped in for a pint, I was initially the only person standing at the bar, six people subsequently came up to the bar got served with drinks and left, the only difference I could see, they had darker skin. It was a customer that came up and asked what I wanted, I left without a drink. I’d not experienced that here in Devon. I remember that, it stuck with me. Do I consider they were all racist, or that gave me a right to dismantle the bar, No. However I cannot perceive how other feel when this as a regular occurrence, or as a result accept it gives other the right to damage property not owned by them, attack  police or set fire and loot as accruing in America. 

It’s time we act against racism, however the threat or accusations of being racists, should not prevent the law taking action where it’s being broken.  Or action to be taken against violence to women,  taking girls abroad to be married without consent or youngster being stopped and searched in areas where drugs and gun crime is prevalent whether black or white or any other colour. There is one law that must apply to all.
 

I agree that the rule of law must prevail. The law in turn must be made with full respect for the rights of all individuals and groups in society not just the ones with economic, social or electoral power. And the law must then be enforced without bias and in the interests of the whole community, and administered justly.

We're now entering a period in which many public statues associated with Britain's colonial past are going to be scrutinised for what they are said to represent. There will be widely differing views. Maybe then we should start a process of 're-interviewing' (posthumously of course) all the people lionised on those public memorials, using a standardised protocol in which a board of review, with both historians and community representatives, is tasked with coming up with a recommendation, for final decision by elected councils, on whether each statue should be left as-is, complemented by interpretive material, moved to a museum, or simply disposed of. Just a thought.

Nigel

 

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I agree Nigel, all people breaking the law today, be judge equally with exactly the same rights based on laws applicable today. You cannot take current laws and apply them retrospectively, if someone was complying to the law at the time they were Lawful and law bidding. You may have a moral view and determine that their actions were not acceptable with today’s standard in Britain/UK and make those observation apparent. You should not make all the current families of those citizens responsible for their moral code or the moral code of the countries applicable at the time, hundreds a year ago. We need to look forward not back. You can’t change the past you can influence the future.

There are however many countries with current standards from all walks of life colour and creed that fall well short of ours, which we do not and should not find acceptable. If you go back far enough In some cases you don’t have to go back that far or at all. Everywhere I’m sure Will have a dubious pasts and some still do. As has been said already we have people here enjoying cheap products because others are working In poor conditions, but we continue to purchase those products even though we are aware, and there are very rich people in those countries exploiting their own people. Even those that have been part of our colonial past perhaps. Is this the time to reflect and say no. I am sure relevant authorities Are now ready to consider whether a statue is currently appropriate, but in my experience it rarely stops there. What’s more I am expecting to see trial by media to condemn individuals the government and make news rather than report it depending how the wind blows at any particular time. 

Edited by Derek Hurford
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12 minutes ago, cvtrian said:

Not slave trader statues, but worth a watch given the subject of the recent demonstartions

 

That clip was posted yesterday Ian on the first page, it just shows up as a different header,  how's things around the garage ?

Mick Richards

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My two penneth . . .  

Saw a comment the other day .  . . . . . . 

This is the way to beat racism;

Innocent black man, killed by corrupt white policeman

 

And whilst I'm here;

Kids, who don't know they are born, and don't have a clue as to how lucky they really are, want to deny our history
Slavery happened
It was wrong
It happened
It is rightfully, no longer unacceptable
It happened
Get a grip for crying out load


Slavery was banned in the UK in 1833, so concentrate on stopping MODERN slavery
Demonstrate about the grooming and multiple rape of our children
Worry about the increase in grooming, 'lockdown' grooming they are calling it.

For Gods sake grow up.
Defacing of Churchills statue!!
Where in the hell do you think you would be without him?
Speaking German, giving the straight arm salute . . If you are lucky enough to be outside a death camp.

Demonstrating children.
When you understand just how lucky you are and just how much your freedom cost, you will have earned the right to voice your opinion.

I'll get my tin hat

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11 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Tim,

if I went there with one of those fancy 'bird song' microphones in a dish would I still be able to hear you playing.

 

Roger

With all the iconic bands that have played there over the years, wouldn't it be great if you could?

I see that there is a plan to re-name the place...

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On further consideration of the subject; Auschwitz still exists ( and has not been renamed) or demolished why not?

Another lesson from history and a name that re-states and  reinforces the message it sends to future generations.

Only expunge these things from the record if you don't want the message out there.

 

Alan

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33 minutes ago, barkerwilliams said:

On further consideration of the subject; Auschwitz still exists ( and has not been renamed) or demolished why not?

Another lesson from history and a name that re-states and  reinforces the message it sends to future generations.

Only expunge these things from the record if you don't want the message out there.

 

Alan

 

Alan

I've been

Even in it's current state (most of the damage done by the builders, trying to destroy evidence), it's a surreal, scary  place.

The original camp, a repurposed army barracks, contains horrific examples of the work done, including a roll of fabric, made from human hair.

But, it's the main camp that drives home thr message, it's huge, I mean, just huge.  Genocide on an industrial scale. 

I spent 8 hours there in total and could have spent days there.

Every school in the country should send a bus full of kids to Auschwitz every year.

Only by remembering the past can we make the future a safer place.

IMAG1493.jpg

Image0077.jpg

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One line of argument in this thread follows the pattern: "But what about Tom, Dick, or Harry? (in other countries). Another: "But that was a long time ago; things have changed".

I was reminded of a conversation with a white British mum of a black son. She told me, that he is stopped several times a day by the police on his way home. He's a minicab driver. Guess why he's stopped. Not for speeding. Nor for jumping the lights.

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5 hours ago, barkerwilliams said:

On further consideration of the subject; Auschwitz still exists ( and has not been renamed) or demolished why not?

Another lesson from history and a name that re-states and  reinforces the message it sends to future generations.

Only expunge these things from the record if you don't want the message out there.

 

Alan

Alan, your argument is sound in itself and I would absolutely agree with you.

However, one might argue that Auschwitz is not really the equivalent of Colston's statue, but that a statue of Himmler would be.  I'm guessing you don't see too many of those.  Still, this is (IMO) dodgy ground to be on - any time we start comparing a situation to the Nazis (or Stalin, for that matter).

It's certainly true that there is an increasing movement within the USA to remove statues of Confederate generals etc. and it could be argued that Colston is more like those; what was done at the time was not only legal but seen as an honourable path by many (most?) of his contemporaries and some good things came from it through philanthropy etc.  However, it's also enitrely appropriate to view these things from today's point of view of what is acceptable and what isn't.  That's why I think the statue should be put in proper historical context; how it was then, and what we know now.  Would I have torn it down?  No.  But then I wouldn't have done that with statues of Lenin or Sadam Hussain; I would have placed these statues in an appropriate museum which properly describes the suffering of those impacted and giving a proper 360 degree view of the person "celebrated" by the statue.

However, others may WELL disagree with me ;)

Cheers,

Tim

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Tim,

I think you have missed the point; it's not the white slavers, or the Nazis, or Queen Victoria Empress of India, or the North American Indians, or the Maoris, or the Australian Aborigines, or the Angles, Mongols, Romans or anyone else you can think of  the message from history is unequivocal, everyone in every corner of this planet is capable of such atrocities without exception.

It is not only a people - people issue, it is in our very biological nature to succeed, to overcome all obstacles, to expand into all other lands, to exterminate inconvenient wildlife, to deforest and remodel the plant, to strip and pollute the seas, to eliminate, put to work or consume everything we come across. It is the  biological driver of all life forms, predominance.

We all have a hierarchy in which put our own families first , then neighbours, then county then country  to the detriment of others, how could it be otherwise? It is the meaning of life, survival.

Until mankind recognises inconvenient truths the planet and life as we know it is on a crash course. I hope the mankind never gets into deep space or we will treat any alien lifeforms out there in exactly the same way.

Pessimistic - never, just a realist,

Alan

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The hysteria is getting worse -  the contagion is spreading. They have now removed the Baden-Powell statue from Poole harbour for safe keeping, not because of anything he did but because some bleeding-hearts don't like some of the political views he held. 

The statues are beginning to fight back though (from 33 seconds in):

 

 

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13 hours ago, wjgco said:

 

Alan

I've been

Even in it's current state (most of the damage done by the builders, trying to destroy evidence), it's a surreal, scary  place.

The original camp, a repurposed army barracks, contains horrific examples of the work done, including a roll of fabric, made from human hair.

But, it's the main camp that drives home thr message, it's huge, I mean, just huge.  Genocide on an industrial scale. 

I spent 8 hours there in total and could have spent days there.

Every school in the country should send a bus full of kids to Auschwitz every year.

Only by remembering the past can we make the future a safer place.

IMAG1493.jpg

Image0077.jpg

So did a lot of my distant family, unfortunately for them it was a one way ticket

Stuart.

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59 minutes ago, RobH said:

The hysteria is getting worse -  the contagion is spreading. They have now removed the Baden-Powell statue from Poole harbour for safe keeping, not because of anything he did but because some bleeding-hearts don't like some of the political views he held. 

The statues are beginning to fight back though (from 33 seconds in):

The Police standing back in Bristol has emboldened the baying mob element and mentality of the protestors. This and the irrational actions of councils in taking down more statues will only give a green light to others to take the law into their own hands. I read today of two Police Officers being assaulted in broad daylight.

The Government and Police Forces must get the situation back under control, else I fear that it will be seen that violence is the only way.

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Rod I suspect the reason the police stood back was if they had gone in wading batons, as would probably have been needed given how worked up the crowd was, they would then have found themselves being accused of using unnecessary force and 2 weeks hence the local authority would have had a meeting and agreed to take the thing down anyway. Dammed if they do dammed if they don't. 

Not saying I agree with the way the situation ended just think they made a decision to pick their battles and this was one they couldn't win. 

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It's raining and the job I was going to do on the TR6 is an outside one. So with not much else to do I thought I would depress you all with a little Thursday lunchtime ramble...

I really do hope that Cressida Dick and other senior police officers have a plan for the coming weekend. It has been just over 52 years since MP Enoch Powell made his famous "rivers of blood" speech. If the undercurrent on Facebook and other social media sites is anything to go by then this might be the weekend for those rivers to flow. If it happens it will be tragedy. But the actors in this tragedy are only pawns and for the most part have not even read the script. The question is, who is directing this particular farce and to what end?

Over the past decade many governments have been subjugated. We have also recently seen the UK police subjugated, to the point where they now seem to be completely ineffective. The army? Well I don't know what to say on that subject. But once that last bastion of freedom falls then it will just be down to the people. I don't hold out too much hope and when the people are finally subjugated there will be no difference between any of us. We will all be slaves, black and white.

Looks like it might have stopped raining. Back to the TR... The world is a better place already :D

 

Screenshot 2020-06-11 at 12.37.18 pm.png

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I do seriously wonder if lockdown has had a greater impact on some peoples mental health than we realise, so many people seem to be so angry about so many things ........................

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i think the world has gone mad and i'm not blaming corona virus either.  The 'luvvies' are noe falling over themselves to apologise for past comedy sketches where people like Ant & Dec and David Walliams etc impersonated African and Chinese people.   So what next?  Should Sir Lennie Henry now apologise for impersonating Tommy Cooper?   Of course not.  A  black guy impersonating a white guy  'Just like that' is just FUNNY.  As for the morons who filmed themselves chanting outside Buckingham Palace that Boris is a Wa****r  obviously have no idea where he lives or that the Queen is at Windsor but they are now on U tube so they have their 30 seconds of fame. 

Someone made a comment above about the influences of left wing teaching at schools and universities.  Having worked in that environment for over 30 years I can only say its true. There was never any even handed discussion as to the whys and wherefores of govt policy, only praise for the left and decrying the right.    Most of my former work colleagues in Birmingham were left wing activists who would go on strike at the drop of a hat.  Any proposed changes  to working practices were vigorously challenged  but when push came to shove when the new academic contracts came in during the 1990's  they all caved in. So much for solidarity brother. 

hoges.  

 

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David,

 

Thank you for "re-phrasing" my post and linking it to Nazi ideology. Pity though that you have totally mis-interpreted my post, next time I shall have to make my arguments somewhat simpler so that others can understand them and cannot totally transform them for their own purposes.

Alan

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32 minutes ago, barkerwilliams said:

David,

 

Thank you for "re-phrasing" my post and linking it to Nazi ideology. Pity though that you have totally mis-interpreted my post, next time I shall have to make my arguments somewhat simpler so that others can understand them and cannot totally transform them for their own purposes.

Alan

My apologies, if that is the result of my communication, as you have interpreted it. I had no intention of manipulating your assertions. I don't agree that this was what I did. I had no "purposes", as such, other than to engage with your views, as I understand them.

For my part, I am freely expressing my own response, in an open, civilized, exchange.

To clarify, I am wary of the human nature argument, because of its consequences, which I have endeavoured to exemplify with two examples of failed agency, understood as taking steps to address human shortcomings. I hope this clarification helps, and thank you for your reaction, anyway.

Edited by DavidBee
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