Slave TRade Statues - your views.

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

what are your views on the removal of the slave TRader statues.

My view is that the statues represent an age long ago, a thing of the past  

At the time the slave trade was not a crime. We did not start it. BUT, we did make the first steps in stopping it.

Bristol and many other towns/cities in the UK grew because of the money brought in - should we now get rid of those places.

If we get rid of the things that remind us of the slave trade perhaps we will forget it ever happened and perhaps when it happens again we will not know what is happening. and accept it.

 

Roger

[stillp]

I think the Bristol statue should form part of a memorial to the slave who perished in transit across the seas.

Pete

[Crawfie]

You cannot change history, but you can change the future.

In my opinion, The statues should remain, but used to educate the next generations. There is nothing to stop the authorities where the statues are to put up "information sheets" about what that person did.....and historically correct. 

Mob culture is a dangerous thing. What next....burning books ?, demolishing historic buildings built by those persons...the list can go in and on.

i must add that what happened in America was completely wrong....but I must also add that the woman who tried to burn the union flag on the Cenotaph was beyond contempt. That monument is  there to remember those who lost their lives to protect the freedoms that people enjoy today. 

 

[Richard Green 54]

The statue in Bristol has always been contentious and was an easy target. But where do you draw the line? How about removing Nelson from Trafalgar Square just in case he upsets someone from a French or Spanish ethnic group in London.

[Motorsport Mickey]

The slave trade was obnoxious and horrible...and an accepted business of the time.

We tend to think of this large scale exporter of slaves worth hundreds of thousands of pounds worth (maybe millions) when we think of slavers...in many cases...wrong ! The ownership of slaves was spread countrywide and was an "investment opportunity" for many, including middle class (that's right, people like you and me !) who used it as a pre "ISA" method of money multiplying. I remember seeing on "Who do you think you are" (I think) that when the British government banned owning slaves a "bounty" was paid (ie some guineas GBP per head) to the owners for their lost "assets" amongst them a dentist in Glasgow who owned 4 and various other peoples and trades spread across the kingdom. Of course there was a ledger kept of the owners and monies paid for their losses suffered.

I also remember Ainsley Harriot had a connection to the West Indies, this was revealed when his episode of "Who do you think you are" took him back to his roots and my overriding memory of the programme was his vehement and barely contained hatred for people who owned slaves and particularly the owner of his father. When later in the programme he found out that his father had been released from being a slave and declared a free man, and had then himself bought a half dozen slaves for investment and business purposes (renting them out to the plantation owners) his surprise and sickly pallor told the story. His grin (as adopted by presenters) started to slip and uumms and aaah's "well who would have believed it" slipped into the conversation along with a grudging admittance that "it was of it's time".

 “The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.”

Rather than try and judge generations previous for their many misdemeanours (real or imagined) I think it's as well to try and give them as much licence as we cut for the "yoof" of today. We all live in the worlds of our times and can only judge what is accepted by the world in general as being right or wrong, today slavery is rightly condemned and our governments would not allow it, and the populations would rebel against it. These statues are of people who were regarded as being notable in their times, their actions at that time were regarded as honourable, that's all that can be said about them.  

Mick Richards     

Edited June 9, 2020 by Motorsport Mickey

[Tim T]

I bet that a lot of the people involved in pulling down the statue have happily benefitted from some of the legacy of Colston eg favourite band at the Colston Hall. 

Tim

[duncan]

I am going to be controversial with a few points

Many of the slaves were sold to slavers by either their own chiefs or were captives in tribal warfare, would they have survived if not sold ?

Africa, like any other region has had dominant & subservient slave tribes

Due to lack of food / disease, how many of the slaves who were transported would have survived in africa

Some / many ? owners would have treated their slaves well, looking after their investment

It was not just africans who were slaves - indentured servants were probably treated worse as they were not an investment, this was only made illegal in the USA after the civil war 

Prisoners of war were often transported as slaves / indentured servants

Were the Nazi concentration camps, Japanese work camps & USSR / Chinese gulags slave camps ?

Slavery exists today in many countries and many forms

Doesn't make slavery right though

[Rod1883]

I am a proud son of Bristolians, although I live and have lived elsewhere in the UK since the age of 18.

Edward Colston, and other similar people, were a big part of a trade that we know was abhorrent. At the time Liverpool, London and of course Bristol grew rich on the trade that was supported by all pillars of society. That doesn't make it right, but it should also be noted that the British were the first to see the trade for what it was and put a stop to it, and to try to stop it throughout the rest of the world.

The good things that Colston did in Bristol (and others of his ilk elsewhere) left a legacy of care and education for the poor,  and education, arts and religion for all of wider society too. Today we should be able to reflect both sides of the man in a reasonable, historically contexed, and reasoned way.
If we can't, then where do we stop - do we tear down all that the man did - churches, schools, etc., and do we then go further back into history and start to tear down anything with a Roman, or Saxon, or Viking, or Norman connection because of the atrocities that those cultures and people dished out to the indigenous peoples of this island and elsewhere? Of course not - we learn, we understand, we make sure we improve and don't make the same mistakes again.

Mobs tearing things down and defacing things is not the way.

I firmly believe that this country is as tolerant of all cultures as any in the World, and has a level of freedom of expression that is again as good as anywhere else - a freedom that was fought for by my Father and others of his generation, with the inspiration of Churchill (another targeted by the protestors) behind them.

If it had not been for that inspiration then we could easily have lost that struggle. Who knows what would have happened then - Spain would probably have joined the Axis powers, Germany would have taken the French Navy, and probably some of ours too, they most likely would have achieved the Atomic Bomb first, etc. etc......              I, probably, would not be alive, our minority peoples would have been exterminated as would have all those in Europe. Yes Churchill, as a man of his time made mistakes and held views certainly in his early life that we are not comfortable with today, but you can't really judge through 21st century eyes.

We can, and should, reflect and record individuals achievements and of course the things we are not comfortable with too, but put them into context of the time and the societal views and norms of those times. Educational plaques, museum exhibits, putting a balanced view to our children in schools all must be part of the effort to put things in context.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Rod1883

[DavidBee]

In my opinion, removing signs of the past is tantamount to removing its traces. Not very democratic. In my country, Italy, when the occupying Germans were retreating from the North in 1945, in their own leisurely time, they tried very hard to destroy all the evidence of their concentration camp near Venice, brick by brick.

By destroying, they were already negating the past, ready to deny they had done anything wrong.

I don't quite know why, but it brings to mind no-platforming, a popular trend among students seeking to deny other people, whose views or whose actions they dislike.

I want to see the evidence, or at least know it is still there for me to see, should I be so inclined.

PS. A local example for you to consider. UCC, University College Cork, was originally Queen's College Cork, and the British Royal crest and motto is still visible, though slightly defaced, on the original main gateway/entrance, built in 1846.

The campus had a statue of young Queen Victoria, removed after Irish independence. Its fate was to be buried in the grounds, only recently recovered and now stored in a locked basement somewhere on site.

Quote

‘Royal cleansing’ advanced and Victoria (the ‘Famine Queen’) was a particular target. In 1935 a statue of Victoria at University College Cork was taken down (it was buried in the President’s Garden until it was disinterred in 1995 for the college’s 150th anniversary)

https://www.ucc.ie/en/news/opinion---a-right-royal-paradox-irelands-ambivalence-.html

See also: "Owen Jones, Is a Queen Victoria Statue offensive?" The Guardian 7 March 2016.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/students-queen-victoria-statue-cecil-rhodes-colonial-past

"Whatever your perspective, these students are doing us a favour. They’re forcing us to confront our history – and understand better who we are", was Owen's conclusion. But, is removing statues the best way to deal with the air-brushed picture of the past? 

It was removed for what it meant, or better, the meaning attached to it, "royal cleansing", in the new political context.

I am no Royalist, but I do think it is a pity. Colonialism is very much part of Ireland's history, so is that monument — out of sight, out of mind — so is the (new) turf hut, sited nearby, built as a reconstruction that was made to remind students of the extreme poverty and suffering on these shores in the not-so-distant past.

Edited June 14, 2020 by DavidBee
Typo, then adding to content

[Misfit]

Slavery was present in Egypt,  Rome, way before the America’s or Britain made a business of it. 

Any use of kidnapping whether to press gangIng men to man ships for the Navy, forcing people to build pyramid, using Christians to build or have them slaughtered in the name of sport is wrong. As was the mass kidnapping off black or coloured people.   Do we tear down the pyramids, the colosseum  sink Royal Naval ships 

All lives not just black lives matter, you can’t change the past. You can improve the future. By removing anything that offends because of what has gone before won’t change anything.  Removing  these statues Is removing evidence of what’s gone on before. A reminder to not allow it to occur again. I heard today that there have been requests to remove Drakes statue in Plymouth, I understand people are mad but we should not allow that to give way to the madness that is occurring now.

Soon all the good will, the feeling that things need to  change will soon disappear,  if this continues Nothing will come of the  good will that currently exists and Public opinions will change again I believe for the worse, that will be a shame. 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Derek Hurford

[ntc]

My sympathies went downhill when they defaced Winstons memorial and others did not stop them 

[TorontoTim]

While I can understand the desire to pull down the statue, I think that using it for education about history - both good and bad - and looking to change the present to create a better future is a better course of action.  I would think that pulling it out of the harbour shouldn't be too tricky; then it can be re-established with relevant context.

3 hours ago, ntc said:

My sympathies went downhill when they defaced Winstons memorial and others did not stop them 

Neil, while I also understand your sentiments here, if the protests are about anything, they are surely about not treating a large group of people as being all the same - rather, that we are all individuals.  As such, I don't think it's fair or appropriate to equate all protestors with the few associated with defacing Churchill's statue.

FWIW, I played Colston Hall back in the day 

Tim

[Motorsport Mickey]

There are different views about racism...sometimes surprisingly they come from people who you might think would follow the norm, an interesting watch.

Mick Richards

[RogerH]

6 hours ago, TorontoTim said:

 

FWIW, I played Colston Hall back in the day 

Tim

Hi Tim,

if I went there with one of those fancy 'bird song' microphones in a dish would I still be able to hear you playing.

 

Roger

[rcreweread]

This person makes some interesting points - hope this link works

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=6f816c5b2e&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1669055168976221807&th=1729acd5495b766f&view=att&disp=safe

I also agree that you should never remove history, but learn from it and that's much more difficult when what little evidence that exists has been removed.

I can't help but feel a lot of this mob rule is generated in our further education system where politically naive young people are indoctrinated against the status quo and any attempts to counter this are defended in the name of racism - a very sad state of affairs

Cheers Rich

[Mick Forey]

I would like to see the Colston statue removed from the harbour, not restored but left in its damaged state, then placed in a local museum with a full and accurate history of the man, the times, George Floyd and what happened to the statue. However, it is what we do now as mankind that really matters, do we learn from the past or just hide another inconvenient truth.

Last night we watched the 2016 documentary on Netflix called The 13th.  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5895028/  An appalling story of racism and control over the African American and other coloured populations since slavery enacted through the law and prison system. Just one form of slavery replacing another. If you have not seen it, then I recommend you do, particularly in light of recent events. It makes for some very uncomfortable viewing.

Mick

[Bleednipple]

19 minutes ago, Mick Forey said:

I would like to see the Colston statue removed from the harbour, not restored but left in its damaged state, then placed in a local museum with a full and accurate history of the man, the times, George Floyd and what happened to the statue. However, it is what we do now as mankind that really matters, do we learn from the past or just hide another inconvenient truth.

Last night we watched the 2016 documentary on Netflix called The 13th.  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5895028/  An appalling story of racism and control over the African American and other coloured populations since slavery enacted through the law and prison system. Just one form of slavery replacing another. If you have not seen it, then I recommend you do, particularly in light of recent events. It makes for some very uncomfortable viewing.

Mick

In similar light, last night we watched the docu-drama Sitting in Limbo about Anthony Bryan, one of the Windrush generation who were appallingly and cynically treated - wrongly detained, and in some cases deported - not just "in living memory" but within the last five years. The question left hanging was: would those people have been treated as egregiously by the UK government if their families had emigrated to Britain from say Canada, rather than the Caribbean? 

That is why what some have implied as an equivalence between what the Normans might have done to the Saxons and the actions of colonialist and slave-holding Britons in more recent history is a false and potentially offensive comparison. The difference is the pervasive context: that we still live in a country where black and other minority people have in their own lives suffered from prejudice and discrimination. For them, having to walk past a statue of a former slave-holder in a public place must be... well I can't really imagine what it must be like and neither I'm guessing can most of us posting on this thread.

So rather than say what I think should now happen to the statue of Colston, or of Rhodes, maybe a good starting point would be to ask some black Britons what they think should happen.

Nigel

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Bleednipple

[brian -r]

These people are missing the point ALL LIVES MATTER  there are so many other people from all backgrounds that that suffer similar plights who are being pushed into the darkness and forgotten by their actions.

 Rewriting  history or removing  evidence of it ,is counter productive we all should learn from the past to ensure such things are not repeated. Learn the lessons from past generations mistake's and practice them, not use them as an excuse for anarchy which only widens the divide between society.  

Freedom of speech is the right of all,  past , present and future generations, to remove the traces of the past denies all generations that right.

Brian

[stuart]

8 hours ago, TorontoTim said:

FWIW, I played Colston Hall back in the day 

Tim

So did I lots of times

Stuart.

[barkerwilliams]

Apologies if this comes across the wrong way, I would not like to upset anyone.

I came from Hull in Yorkshire and we had the William Wilberforce museum and visited it several times as a child. Some of the paintings, cargo hold layouts and the steel anklet, necklets, and manacles, whips etc were bloody awful. However when I look at such historical artefacts I do so from the moralistic position of the 20/21st century's and it makes it impossible to decide how it must have been at the time. I was given to understand that slavery is a very old practice, possibly as old as mankind and common in Africa at the time between different tribes. 

Much or our pseudo-history of that period comes either via Hollywood or UK costume dramas which seems to paint a rosy picture of life then for the working classes , but it was not so, I am not convinced that working life for the working classes then was little better than slaves. Our army and navy with the press gangs had a very similar slavery practices by any other name, much of mankind's history demonstrates no value for any human life other than the then ruling class. Were not the Roman armies also filled with slaves?

There are so many historical atrocities that it is difficult to judge which is the lowest point in the worlds humanity. Even in modern times with the WW2 slave labour in Europe and the far east, and slave labour conditions still being reported within far east manufacturing. There are still reports of Philippine domestic servants still being held in wealthy western homes, and there are also continuing press reports of the migrant sex-workers held at slaves throughout Europe.

I am not qualified to judge which slave from which era has suffered the most and which deserves the most sympathy, but I really believe that if we care about slavery we should be focusing on those who are currently enslaved, not those who were enslaved generations ago.

I do think though that it is not possible to airbrush history  and that the presence of such statues, universities and similar monuments and bequests help maintain the subject in the public consciousness and is perhaps a suitable method to remind us of how close geographically, and timewise we are to such practices and how we are all impacted by them even today. The presence of the statues serve as yet another warning from history of the depths to which mankind can sink to whilst believing at the time that such practices are acceptable

 

Alan

 

 

[acaie]

Another perspective on the statue

https://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles/myths-within-myths/

 

[Bleednipple]

22 minutes ago, acaie said:

Another perspective on the statue

https://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles/myths-within-myths/

 

Thanks, a very interesting read. I'd never heard of Colston before, but if the events of the weekend in Bristol make me and others reflect just a tiny bit on what we as a society choose to deem 'proper' to commemorate, I'd say Colston has ended up doing a lot more by being chucked in the River Avon than he did standing on a plinth somewhere (whether in a public square, or even in a museum).

Nigel

[Peter Cobbold]

Bristol has a history of trading in death. Its tobacco trading will have killed or disabled many times more folk than its slave trading. So demolish the Tobacco Factory !!

Now Liverpool after ceasing trading slaves never took to trading tobacco. But sugar, yes. And that is shortening lives too, today. Demolish Tate&Lyle !!

So to be logical about putting history to rights we should ban fags and sweets, pull down the factories and join in the orgy of symbolism. Unlike statues of traders we may even benefit ourselves, black, white and brown all together.

Peter

Edited June 10, 2020 by Peter Cobbold

[Misfit]

4 hours ago, Mick Forey said:

I would like to see the Colston statue removed from the harbour, not restored but left in its damaged state, then placed in a local museum with a full and accurate history of the man, the times, George Floyd and what happened to the statue. However, it is what we do now as mankind that really matters, do we learn from the past or just hide another inconvenient truth.

Last night we watched the 2016 documentary on Netflix called The 13th.  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5895028/  An appalling story of racism and control over the African American and other coloured populations since slavery enacted through the law and prison system. Just one form of slavery replacing another. If you have not seen it, then I recommend you do, particularly in light of recent events. It makes for some very uncomfortable viewing.

Mick

I watch that, I felt uncomfortable too. I saw similarities here,  but I hope no one would accept that there has been the same degree of racism here.  The problem I fear is that there is an element that would wish to suggest that we are complicit to that degree. One person owning another person, it wasn’t that long ago a man was perceived to own his wife and the children she provided, in some cases they paid the man to take their female child off their hands.. Things have clearly changed, but some my say not far enough in the case of women and in certain cultures  often The change is much much slower if at all.

 I accept that there racism exists here,  but we are not a racist country. There has been degrees of racism In all countries through out the history and still is,  not just black on white, here in European too, countries where attempts of ethnic cleansing have been observed.

Perhaps after living in American my mother instilled in me the only difference between Black and brown coloured people and white coloured People is the pigment in there skin. My first sign of what I perceived as racism that struck me, was in the White Heart pub in Southall when attending my cousins wedding, I popped in for a pint, I was initially the only person standing at the bar, six people subsequently came up to the bar got served with drinks and left, the only difference I could see, they had darker skin. It was a customer that came up and asked what I wanted, I left without a drink. I’d not experienced that here in Devon. I remember that, it stuck with me. Do I consider they were all racist, or that gave me a right to dismantle the bar, No. However I cannot perceive how other feel when this as a regular occurrence, or as a result accept it gives other the right to damage property not owned by them, attack  police or set fire and loot as accruing in America. 

It’s time we act against racism, however the threat or accusations of being racists, should not prevent the law taking action where it’s being broken.  Or action to be taken against violence to women,  taking girls abroad to be married without consent or youngster being stopped and searched in areas where drugs and gun crime is prevalent whether black or white or any other colour. There is one law that must apply to all.
 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Derek Hurford

[Tim T]

I imagine that back in the day the harvesting of tobacco and sugar cane was probably carried out by slaves. So at some point although not directly involved with slavery many people would be benefitting from slavery indirectly. Today we have cheap goods from all over the world, cheap labour from Eastern Europe, are these not further examples of modern slavery. Victorian times we had child labour, children going up chimneys etc. It is how things are at any single point in time and as has been said hopefully we learn and make things better.

Tim