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Fuel Pump Specifications / Replacement


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Hello

Pardon the basic nature of this enquiry. I am writing from Toronto; here in North America there is not much experience in conversions to PI.

Specifically I’m writing for some guidance on where I can find a replacement fuel pump, or at least detailed specifications for the ‘214347BOSCHTYPE’ carried by RImmer.

I believe the output of Rimmer’s pump is 105 psi, but it would be helpful to find the flow rate. The Rimmer site isn’t that helpful, and their staff don’t have the information.

 Why am I looking for this information? In February last year I bought my original pump from Rimmer, for my 74 TR6 which was undergoing a conversion to PI. Cost: GBP 275. My car wasn’t on the road until spring  a few weeks ago, when the fuel pump failed. Below is a sad photo of my car ready for towing to a local repair shop. When I called Rimmer, they said that their one year warranty had expired. Replacement pumps are now GBP 300. I explained my situation three times to two people at Rimmer. They are standing by their 12 month warranty, saying that they cannot return the pump to their supplier. On my side, I’m not enthusiastic about spending now GBP 300 to replace a pump that failed after maybe 75 miles of driving.

Calls to suppliers here in North America, even to Moss, have not been helpful.   I do have a number of options from local large auto parts suppliers if I can provide specifications or – better yet – the part number of a well-known manufacturer such as Bosch. Of course I don’t mind buying a part from the UK or Europe.

So please help: does anyone know the specifications of that failed pump, so I can find a replacement elsewhere? Ideally it will have the same fittings. I’m hoping to find a pump for which the replacement installation will be straightforward.

Other suggestions that get me on the road at a reasonable cost are welcome!

Many thanks for your consideration

David

74 TR6 CF22072U

TR6 20 06 03 fuel pump failure tow.jpg

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Hi David and welcome to the Forum!

Is it really the pump that has failed or is the crash switch that has tripped, Item 94 here,  https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr5-6/fuel-system-induction-controls/fuel-injection/ignition-system-tr5-6-1967-76.html

They can trip out sometimes and so cut the power to the pump, you need to check if you have power to the pump first before buying a new one.

John

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David,  Could you attach a photo of you existing pump and what sort of regulator is fitted, we can understand better what sort of system/layout you have for better recommendations.

John 

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Casar66 and John L

1. Thank you for your responses.

2. Copied below is a stock photo of the pump (on the left on the left of course!) from RImmer. , Also copied below is a stock photo of the type of regulator (I don't have the stock number at hand), which came from Aeromotive.

3. The problem was diagnosed as the pump since the output is about 20 psi. So I do not think the problem is the interia switch.

Appreciate any help you and others can provide.

Thanks again

D

 

image.png.79557dd9ad8ea77af7e2bd766f7d3f06.png

 

image.png.f9317f6d0c5bd74ab940012838cf5c8d.png

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David, I run a PI triumph down in Texas and congratulations on taking on the PI conversion.   I've run PI vehicles for decades and they've been very reliable for me and I'm sure they can be for you.  

I run a traditional Lucas pump so I'm less familiar with Bosch but I wouldn't imagine a Bosch pump would fail completely unless it ran dry for some period of time and the seals were damaged.   

Check the fuel flow from the tank - check that filters aren't clogged, no debris getting through to the pump.  A partials blockage would drop the output pressure and you'd likely hear the pump 'screaming' as it reacts to the supply vacuum.  

Re the electrical supply its my understand that Bosch pumps draw considerable current, 9+ amps, and often needs a dedicated, fused, circuit and a very good ground to function well.  So that could be a source of issues.

Finally was the 20lb output pressure measured at the pump output or downstream of the pressure regulator?  

Jim

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Quote

The problem was diagnosed as the pump since the output is about 20 psi. So I do not think the problem is the interia switch.

at my car a Bosch fuel pump replaces the original Lucas in 1985. I bought the car in 2005 with the first Bosch still. 3 years later I had to change it, the pump became very loud, first it started with some seconds howling, then always at hot weather above 28 degrees, and in the end it howled continuously. I guess too much friction inside and due that the output pressure was too low. So If your output ist just 20psi and the fuel pump is still running without exceptional noise then I would check the power supply first. If there are noises then check the fuel flow first.

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Casar66 and Jim F

1. Would either of you gentlemen be good enough to look up the product code numbers of your fuel pumps?

2. In this way I will know that these two pumps work successfully for a PI TR6. Hopefully I'll then be able to look up their specs and purchase one or the other or a pump that meets those specs.

Many thanks

D

(Jim F: Rimmer doesn't offer the Bosch pump. I purchased a 'Bosch type' from them, with no identifying marks. The staff I spoke with at Rimmer don't know the specs of their pump, which is why I'm posting - and stuck!)

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You need one of the following Bosch pumps,

bosch 996 fuel pump I think these were the first to be used many years ago and hard to find now.

bosch 044 fuel pump 

bosch 952 fuel pump.

if you search Bosch fuel pump on the forum there's loads of advise and which pumps

steve

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1 hour ago, David Soknacki said:

Casar66 and Jim F

1. Would either of you gentlemen be good enough to look up the product code numbers of your fuel pumps?

2. In this way I will know that these two pumps work successfully for a PI TR6. Hopefully I'll then be able to look up their specs and purchase one or the other or a pump that meets those specs.

Many thanks

D

(Jim F: Rimmer doesn't offer the Bosch pump. I purchased a 'Bosch type' from them, with no identifying marks. The staff I spoke with at Rimmer don't know the specs of their pump, which is why I'm posting - and stuck!)

Looks like a Sytec pump you have.

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Short answer is you can get a Sytec brand pump equivalent to the 044 for little money on Ebay and even cheaper unbranded ones. 

I guess a search on EBay Canada will no doubt find a supplier nearer to you but that should work fine.

Before condemning your existing pump it might be worth checking it isn’t the PRV down regulating the pressure down to 20 psi. The quick way to check it is the pump is to watch the pressure gauge and very briefly clamp the return pipe from PRV to tank. If the pressure stays low it is the pump, if it jumps up it’s the PRV.

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If you use that pump (equivalent 044) on a standard PI you will get trouble because that pump produce too much pressure/fuel to the MU. One result ist the high temperature of the fuel which leads to vapor bubble for example. I would go for the pump with a pressure as low as possible, the original Lucas had around 7bar, I guess. Most of the Bosch have 10 and above.

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9 minutes ago, Casar66 said:

If you use that pump (equivalent 044) on a standard PI you will get trouble because that pump produce too much pressure/fuel to the MU. One result ist the high temperature of the fuel which leads to vapor bubble for example. I would go for the pump with a pressure as low as possible, the original Lucas had around 7bar, I guess. Most of the Bosch have 10 and above.

+1 that is not the correct one ;)

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David, I still use the original lucas pump and they need specialist repairs due to their age, (picture of pump below).

I also have a sytec pump kit on my shelf, bought it years ago thinking I'd need it but I never have, (pictured below).  the numbers on the pump are H P3019.1.

I hope the pictures look better than they do in the upload tool!

Happy to sell the sytec if you need it but I'm still wondering whether the problem lies elsewhere.

Jim

IMG_2637.jpg

Picture1.png

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I hear somebody has taken over from Malcolm, I just have a name so far,  does he have a new site by chance as I'm sure there must be info available which pumps he uses.

John

 

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Carl Fitchett of TR Trader 67 Ladybridge road, Cheadle Hulme, Cheshire, SK8 5NZ, 07831 826 877 has taken over from Malcolm.

                                                                                            Harvey S. Maitland

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17 hours ago, David Soknacki said:

Hello

Pardon the basic nature of this enquiry. I am writing from Toronto; here in North America there is not much experience in conversions to PI.

Specifically I’m writing for some guidance on where I can find a replacement fuel pump, or at least detailed specifications for the ‘214347BOSCHTYPE’ carried by RImmer.

I believe the output of Rimmer’s pump is 105 psi, but it would be helpful to find the flow rate. The Rimmer site isn’t that helpful, and their staff don’t have the information.

 Why am I looking for this information? In February last year I bought my original pump from Rimmer, for my 74 TR6 which was undergoing a conversion to PI. Cost: GBP 275. My car wasn’t on the road until spring  a few weeks ago, when the fuel pump failed. Below is a sad photo of my car ready for towing to a local repair shop. When I called Rimmer, they said that their one year warranty had expired. Replacement pumps are now GBP 300. I explained my situation three times to two people at Rimmer. They are standing by their 12 month warranty, saying that they cannot return the pump to their supplier. On my side, I’m not enthusiastic about spending now GBP 300 to replace a pump that failed after maybe 75 miles of driving.

Calls to suppliers here in North America, even to Moss, have not been helpful.   I do have a number of options from local large auto parts suppliers if I can provide specifications or – better yet – the part number of a well-known manufacturer such as Bosch. Of course I don’t mind buying a part from the UK or Europe.

So please help: does anyone know the specifications of that failed pump, so I can find a replacement elsewhere? Ideally it will have the same fittings. I’m hoping to find a pump for which the replacement installation will be straightforward.

Other suggestions that get me on the road at a reasonable cost are welcome!

Many thanks for your consideration

David

74 TR6 CF22072U

TR6 20 06 03 fuel pump failure tow.jpg

Hi David,

Looking at your picture of your Rimmer pump assembly, that does not look like a Bosch pump to me? The number you quote does not have enough numbers in it to be a Bosch part number. The wording Bosch type indicates to me that it is not a genuine Bosch? I believe that it may be a Sytec, are they a USA company? Their pumps are used by the Triumph PI 2500 Saloon boys. Glencoe a UK supplier told me that they use a Sytec part number)TP020 also known as Walbro. The original Bosch conversions here in the UK  were done by a company called KMI the originators of the Bosch conversion here in the UK used a Merc. Bosch pump #0580254952, these are still made!!! This pump can operate up to 150 psi and is a low current user unlike some of the other Bosch pumps. I have used one for over 45 years. Fuel supply: the 952 pump can supply 115 to 195 l/hr, the Bosch pump needs 5 l/min free flow to guard against cavitation.  The Sytec pump quoted can pump to139 psi and flow rate is above150 l/min. This will give you some idea of the required performance.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.

 

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16 hours ago, Casar66 said:

If you use that pump (equivalent 044) on a standard PI you will get trouble because that pump produce too much pressure/fuel to the MU. One result ist the high temperature of the fuel which leads to vapor bubble for example. I would go for the pump with a pressure as low as possible, the original Lucas had around 7bar, I guess. Most of the Bosch have 10 and above.

Not strictly true.

The Bosch pumps specify an operating range in terms of pressure and also a maximum flow rate and a flow rate at a specific pressure.

The 044 may well be capable of 10bar and may be capable of producing a high flow rate but that is at  far lower pressure than the 105psi (approx 7 bar) that it will be working at in a TR.

That pump will not damage the metering unit - the PRV is there to regulate the pressure be that from the original Lucas pump or an after market Bosch. The excess is vented back to the tank. An awful lot of TRs have used it perfectly effectively over the years. The amount it vents back at tick over is hardly the Niagra Falls. WHat a pump can deliver at 1 bar will likely be far more than it delivers at 7 bar or 10 bar. A pump that maxes out at 7 bar is likely to fail to deliver enough fuel at that pressure as it gets a bit old.

Yes the operating pressure of the Lucas Pump was 7 bar and it's damn near a miracle if you could get much more pressure out of them with any meaningful flow. Lucas would have fitted a more powerful pump back in the day but were constrained by the budget and had to use what they had in the parts bin that would do a job for the price that enabled Triumph to fit the PI system to the TR5 & 6.

What do you want from a replacement pump? - one that is capable of delivering the flow at a regulated 105psi at full throttle and 6000rpm. Why select one that is marginal when a better option is one that has been well proven to have enough reserve capacity to deliver but not so much it overloads the PRV. A wildy over spec pump is a waste of money and potentially a problem for the PRV to vent.

However the 044 is not too powerful I have run a repro one for a good 10 years and a genuine one for 7 or 8 before that (It failed because it got damaged by a chunk of swarf from a new ali tank that got sucked in to it. Even then it hadn't failed - it was making a few noises and I'd bought a cheapo on Ebay and opted to try that rather than put the original back having removed the spiral of swarf))

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well, you have made your experience like many others have made theres. Here in Germany was a long discussion about that with many trials and errors. Of course there are some drivers which stronger pumps without any problems but many others the opposite. But there was no PI with any problems with a standard PI-setup and just replacing the Lucas by the "low pressure" Bosch pumps. No bigger drain, no new PRV, just replacing and place the pump below the tank.

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