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Good Morning. 

First post as a new forum member so please excuse if this has been answered before. I have found some threads that point me in the right direction, but I'm looking for some further guidance.

My '58 Tr3a has been in the family for many years. I've looked after it for the past eight years or so. Usual issues with overheating etc but it's ok for the relative little use it gets. Last year after a winter of being started occasionally (and the car only doing 100 miles the previous year) I noticed the oil was a rather milky grey/brown colour. Hoping it was condensation I carried out a coolant and engine flush with two oil changes and all seemed well. Unfortunately I only used the car a handful of times last year (another 100 miles or so) and all seemed well.

I have noticed once again after a winter of being in the garage and being moved and started a few times the same issue has occurred. It appears I maybe losing water from the rad level and the engine oil quantity is above the max level where it had been left. In addition the oil is milky once again.

I'd like to think a good long drive with the engine at temperature will sort out, but suspect I may have a water/coolant crossing into the oil. Perhaps via head gasket or fo8 gaskets under the liners. The head gasket failed 5 years ago and was replaced. The block is furred up at the rear of the block which I believe is part of the overheating issue. When replacing the head gasket two of the four liners were sitting slightly low and high. The mechanic removed some very crude off cuts of copper shims which were presumably put in years before to level the liner tops with the block (!) and he decided to remove the shims and put wellseal either side of the head gasket to see how it goes. It has behaved since. I am now wondering if this has more to do with the Fo8 liners and water seeping out over winter into the sump?

Regardless I intend a complete strip down and rebuild of the car in the coming years but was hoping to keep it running in the meantime rather than be forced into it earlier than expected. 

Any thoughts advice, guidance etc would be much appreciated. I can post a photo of the oil if needed.

I'm based in Dorset if anyone knows of a good contact to help out. 

Many thanks

Iain

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Sorry but you are now in rebuild territory...now.

If you use the car or even run the engine...at all...even for minutes it risks damage to crankshaft and bearings which otherwise possibly may be reused (crank anyway) without remachining and costs. The picture you paint is of a car in deep storage which has had some sort of attention but not enough detailed knowledge applied or gained to be able to make suitable recommendations. Water in oil  ?... Head gasket/Figure of 8 gaskets who can tell ? any advice however well meaning from anybody else to you will be a total guess...and you've been there doing that with mechanic last year (years). If anything is done to the car you are now at the stage of doing it correctly, if you can't/don't want to do it  do it this year just drain the water from radiator and block (open the tap on the side if it will allow water out) until you can devote the time to do it.

Mick Richards  

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1st thing I would try is re-torquing the head studs to 100 ft Lbs.  It may be you have a small head gasket leak, & this may cure it. I had similar on my 3 a couple of years ago, except I had compression gasses leaking into the water jacket. re-torquing  fixed it. when I did it I was surprised how much extra movement there was on the nuts.

 

Welcome to the forum by the way.

Bob.

 

PS

I see Mick sneaked in while I was typing. Of course he is correct, but just check those head nuts, it could be worth it !

Edited by Lebro
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Hi Jeffers,

when the mechanic removed the thin copper shims 0n the low liners this would have reduced/removed any clamping frce that the head & gasket applied 

to the liner. Thus allowing the Fo8 to possibly leak.

The ideal solution is to remove the engine (can be done insitu with a struggle) and do all the right things.

Or if you were wild and brave you could use a water sealant like K-seal. This may work but! be aware of Micky's caution above.

 

Roger 

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Thank you for the quick replies. 

Mick - you confirm what I felt maybe the case. I have known the car for 40 years and although it's a nice example it does need an engine rebuild for a number of reasons. Now I'm the custodian I have the opportunity to do this. Ideally whilst the engine is out I want to use the opportunity to restore the car throroughly. Do you have any recommendations where the necessary engine refurb may be carried out? i have local contacts for bodywork. 

This has reared its head post head gasket change/shim removal, so maybe there's something in that reply. However until the engine is dismantled I am not going to know what state it is in. 

Can I ask, is it possible to refurb the liners, Pistons etc as maybe required with the engine is situ or does it have to be removed?

thank you. 

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Pistons can be removed with engine in situ, but removing the liners will make such a mess (going downwards) that it would be impossible to keep the crank etc clean.

& once they are out you will probably want to do some machining on the block anyway - FO8 seal seats, block top surface, etc.

Bob.

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Hi Jeffers,

most of the work can be done insitu but it is a faff .

The pistons & liners can be easily sourced for less than £300 from TRShop etc.

If you need to remove the crank then you need to remove the GB - so take the whole lot out from the start.

Where about's are you. If near Heathrow airport or south of it then C&M engineering in Bracknell can do te engine strip/rebuild.

 

Roger 

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Hi Jeffers and another welcome to the forum - the engine clearly needs a strip down and proper rebuild but that will mean taking your car off the road for a while. With hopefully lockdown easing in the not too distant future and summer weather approaching, I think I would try Bob's ( Lebro) suggesting of re-torquing the head ( don't forget to un-torque before re-torquing) and Rogers suggestion of K-Seal or similar to see if that would give you a temporary reprieve to get you through the summer, and then you can look at a full rebuild during the winter months.

If it buys you a bit of time, it will have cost you a bottle of K-Seal and you can then plan and research for a full rebuild for when the summer is over - there will be a risk of doing some damage to your crank bearings, but they are probably already damaged  and if not, may probably have needed a regrind in any event, so not a lot to lose.

Just my thoughts

Cheers Rich 

Edited by rcreweread
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Thanks for all your advice. I'm researching getting the engine out sooner rather than later and see if I can get it back on the road for the summer. The full restoration will have to wait for a few years, but at least the engine will have been done. 

Thank you all. 

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Have just done that on a 4 with engine in situ. It’s easy. But you have to follow Mick Richards instructions which he sent me. To the letter. I’m in wonderful Dorset as well. From your posts I would guess (and it is a guess) that FO8 s would be likely culprit. JJC

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Jeffers,

You have a Personal Message (PM). Click the Envelope next to your name top right of page, and click Personal Message.

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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Thank you again all. 

Ive decided to get on with it and have found somewhere locally to remove the engine and carry out a diagnosis and the necessary engineering tasks. 

I suspect I may be in for a few surprises, but the engine refurb is long overdue.

I will update as things progress. 

Iain

 

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Can I suggest that as part of your learning process you ask to be part of the dismantling and removal as this will give you the incite into the car the engine and also allow you to judge how well or not the job is being done and then there can not be any surprises.

As an enthusiast you have the right to see your car and overview the work being done. YOU WILL BE PAYING THE BILL at the end of the day.

Sorry but there have been some horror stories recently about unnecessary work, excessive work and finally inaccurate work causing components to be scrapped.

You need to be prepared for what might be found and see it for yourself as it is discovered, also take copious photos as you may end up having to re-assemble yourself.

Discuss any proposed work, get it in writing what the scope of work actually is and stick to that ask how they warrant their work.

Perhaps it would be of benefit to you to get a written quotation first, detailing precisely what work is to be done and ask on the forum what the concensus is and make your decision based on this and then and only then give your permission to start work. Any bona fide workshop will be stand up and accept that there are bad actors around and be prepared to stand by what they do.

Finally be prepared to find that items may be un-repairable as in severely cracked head, severely corroded piston liner seats. You may depending on you competance wish to take parts and refurbish them your self. No thing is beyond redemption if you spend enough money. but you must be the judge of that.

Rod

Edited by Rodbr
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2 hours ago, Jeffers said:

Thank you again all. 

Ive decided to get on with it and have found somewhere locally to remove the engine and carry out a diagnosis and the necessary engineering tasks. 

I suspect I may be in for a few surprises, but the engine refurb is long overdue.

I will update as things progress. 

Iain

 

There have been lots of horror stories on this forum in the past from people who have entrusted their engines to engineering shops who don't have experience of TR engines.  I suggest that you make sure that they have rebuilt a wet liner engine before.

Rgds Ian

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+1

These engines are not complex but have their well known idiosyncracies. Well, well known to those that know! A minefield for those that don’t.

Iain
 


 

Edited by iain
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I have had an engine rebuild by a company who only do Tr work. This is good because they know the problems. It is boring to take off the front panel many times, so it is a new clutch and also a chance to check the gearbox and o/d. These are expensive but will last for years.  My engine was built in 1990 and I meet the owner of the company every year at The International. He has not got a good business plan. I have no need to take it to him again
 

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On 5/14/2020 at 9:50 AM, Rodbr said:

Can I suggest that as part of your learning process you ask to be part of the dismantling and removal as this will give you the incite into the car the engine and also allow you to judge how well or not the job is being done and then there can not be any surprises.

As an enthusiast you have the right to see your car and overview the work being done. YOU WILL BE PAYING THE BILL at the end of the day.

Sorry but there have been some horror stories recently about unnecessary work, excessive work and finally inaccurate work causing components to be scrapped.

You need to be prepared for what might be found and see it for yourself as it is discovered, also take copious photos as you may end up having to re-assemble yourself.

Discuss any proposed work, get it in writing what the scope of work actually is and stick to that ask how they warrant their work.

Perhaps it would be of benefit to you to get a written quotation first, detailing precisely what work is to be done and ask on the forum what the concensus is and make your decision based on this and then and only then give your permission to start work. Any bona fide workshop will be stand up and accept that there are bad actors around and be prepared to stand by what they do.

Finally be prepared to find that items may be un-repairable as in severely cracked head, severely corroded piston liner seats. You may depending on you competance wish to take parts and refurbish them your self. No thing is beyond redemption if you spend enough money. but you must be the judge of that.

Rod

.

Edited by Guest
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  • 5 months later...

Out of courtesy to those who kindly offered advice, I thought I’d update on the contaminated oil thread I started some months ago.

My experience for the engine rebuild has been excellent. I can highly recommend the company and I just happened to be fortunate they were local. The owners name is Peter Lander at Sigma Engineering in Gillingham, Dorset. An old school garage, who rebuild and tune both loved and racing classics. I think he is more well known for Jaguar engines but has overhauled many Tr’s. Peter has been running this business for 50 years so I’m guessing he’s doing something right.

It did turn out to be the figure eight gaskets at the bottom of the liners. They had broken up in places and were not providing any form of a seal. The inside of the block was corroded but fortunately everything cleaned up well, machined, crack tested etc and fortunately there was no damage. The car went through a very thorough strip down and rebuild including engine (new liners, pistons etc) & gearbox, new clutch as it seemed sensible to attack this at the time. All work with the exception of heat treating the crank were completed in house.

My Tr3a was very much at the lower value end of the vehicles in his care, but received the same attention to detail. I was kept up to date on developments, invited in to see progress and as expected the job list grew as the engine rebuild progressed. What I now have is a my Tr3a back working better than ever and I’ve already put 500 or so faultless miles on the car since it’s return in August.  Highly recommended if anyone needs this kind of work in the Hampshire/Dorset/Somerset area.
 

All the best and thank you again for the advice, much appreciated. 
Iain

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9 minutes ago, Jeffers said:

Out of courtesy to those who kindly offered advice, I thought I’d update on the contaminated oil thread I started some months ago.

My experience for the engine rebuild has been excellent. I can highly recommend the company and I just happened to be fortunate they were local. The owners name is Peter Lander at Sigma Engineering in Gillingham, Dorset. An old school garage, who rebuild and tune both loved and racing classics. I think he is more well known for Jaguar engines but has overhauled many Tr’s. Peter has been running this business for 50 years so I’m guessing he’s doing something right.

It did turn out to be the figure eight gaskets at the bottom of the liners. They had broken up in places and were not providing any form of a seal. The inside of the block was corroded but fortunately everything cleaned up well, machined, crack tested etc and fortunately there was no damage. The car went through a very thorough strip down and rebuild including engine (new liners, pistons etc) & gearbox, new clutch as it seemed sensible to attack this at the time. All work with the exception of heat treating the crank were completed in house.

My Tr3a was very much at the lower value end of the vehicles in his care, but received the same attention to detail. I was kept up to date on developments, invited in to see progress and as expected the job list grew as the engine rebuild progressed. What I now have is a my Tr3a back working better than ever and I’ve already put 500 or so faultless miles on the car since it’s return in August.  Highly recommended if anyone needs this kind of work in the Hampshire/Dorset/Somerset area.
 

All the best and thank you again for the advice, much appreciated. 
Iain

That's good news Iain, you've not mentioned but the engine will need a head retorque if not already done. Normally recommended at 500 miles but I always do it at anything over 200 miles.

Mick Richards

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When the car went back on the road in 1993, Peter Lander tuned 4VC's engine on his rolling road - great to hear that he and his business are still going strong.  Lots of very expensive machinery in his workshop, but, as with Iain, my car was treated with the respect due to any customer.

Peter was amazingly quick to sort my car - springs removed from dizzy and tweaked by hand, dizzy & carbs adjusted and about 115HP at wheels at 5700 - his experience showed throughout.  Satisfied customer!  Very reasonable charge, I recall (no point in quoting the charge here as times have changed).

Ian Cornish

P.S. I should have mentioned that the late Alec Pringle, who lived just up the road in Mere, held Peter Lander in the very highest regard.

Edited by ianc
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