Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Let’s try to answer these Jeff.

Section N of the WSM is very helpful.

1. Check out the WSM and you will see they recommend seelastic to secure this seal. Both hardtop I have refurbed have had tiny no4? self tappers with matching screw cups also holding that lip seal in place. 

2. Yes this is the technique. 

3. it might work, but I think you will struggle to not end up with material being very stretched in certain places and perhaps even an excess in others, potentially rucking up.  Perhaps cutting the window hole roughly will help the material stretch into position?Don’t forget you want the material to go right to the rear most edge to go under the sealing rubber and also under the rear screen rubber.

4. No problem send me a pm when your ready with your address and it will be on its way to you.
 

Iain

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Iain,

Thought I'd send you a few photos so you can see how things are progressing so far.

As you can see from the attached photos the headlining fitted all in one piece except for a narrow strip on the rear rail. To say that this operation was done with much trepidation is an understatement! Using 2m of Union cloth widthways across the HT seems to be the answer. From this it's then possible to cut out a rough template from the liner as it's draped across the HT to end up with a shape similar to the shape of the liner sold by TRF. I then glued the liner in starting at the front of the HT and working slowly down across the width of the HT using my fingertips to smooth out any bubbles or rucks in the material as it unfolded. I'm sure it all sounds very familiar. To my amazement and delight the material went down smoothly and then up the 'B' posts of the HT using the same method. Surprisingly, it went on with no rucks as the material curved round and tucked in under the side rails.

The adhesive used was, as recommended, AF178 - in my case the brushable version. I soon found that it's not a good idea to attempt to brush this on to the reverse face of the headliner except in very small areas (contrary to the instructions to coat both contact faces with glue). This was because the fabric pills and there's a risk that the glue soaks through the cloth and shows on the front face of the fabric when pressed into place. I found that just coating the inside face of the HT was sufficient and then lightly pressing down the fabric until satisfied that it was in the right place before pressing it down firmly. Doing it this way also prevented any 'bleed through'. There seems to be good adhesion - unless at some point in the future it all ends up round my neck!

After a struggle to get the hardtop to bolt down onto the car I found that starting from the middle bolt on the rear rail worked best. This helped set the distance as to how far back the HT needed to be on the rear deck.The front bolts above the screen could then be loosely fastened before the bolts to the side rails were fastened up. Then went in relatively easily. The RH rear side on my HT tends to stick out from the body when loose, so the steel must have relaxed a bit over time. This side can be pressed into place with hand pressure and bolts up easily to the side bracket. I'm hoping this natural springyness in the steel isn't going to affect the security of the rear screen when it's fitted - time will tell.

The next step will be to insert the rear screen (I'm really looking forward to this job!). If I could take up your offer of the loan of your 'tool'?!  that would be great. I'll PM you my address.

All the best,

JEFFR

IMG_4038.JPG

IMG_4039.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well done Jeff

a good job well done. 
 

(  I went for stainless thumbscrews for the rear)

D7A9273D-F8C5-459C-B478-B23AE08FD949.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites

I also had many problems with the rear window and lost two. This was because I was driving without the sidescreens. At the last loss the police also stopped and I was warned but not charged.

I then had a retired engineer who made me some s/s clamps which fit the profile of the rubber seal inside and out . The two halves are then clamped together by a small bolt the fits right through the seal. I had six made and after that the window never caused me another problem. 

I think that the lining was glued right up the the edge of the window opening and the rubber seal did not have enough friction when under pressure from the wind inside the cockpit.

I managed to replace the windows and the replacements fitted ???

Good luck with yours. 

Richard & B

Edited by Richardtr3a
Spelling
Link to post
Share on other sites

I was worried about the wind pressure on the rear screen running without side screens. 
 

I did add some screen bond between rubber and screen but I was surprised how much the screen rubber insert firmed everything up.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Richardtr3a said:

I also had many problems with the rear window and lost two. This was because I was driving without the sidescreens. At the last loss the police also stopped and I was warned but not charged.

I then had a retired engineer who made me some s/s clamps which fit the profile of the rubber seal inside and out . The two halves are then clamped together by a small bolt the fits right through the seal. I had six made and after that the window never caused me another problem. 

I think that the lining was glued right up the the edge of the window opening and the rubber seal did not have enough friction when under pressure from the wind inside the cockpit.

I managed to replace the windows and the replacements fitted ???

Good luck with yours. 

Richard & B

Hi Richard,

Thank you for your comments. I plan to use windscreen sealant between the rubber seal and the external edge of the windcreen frame to reduce this risk. As Hamish has mentioned I understand the rubber insert also helps firm things up quite a bit. If the incident you refer to happened after you had also taken these measures it's maybe something to worry about. If that is the case could you send a photo of the clips you had made.

Regards,

JEFF

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Iain,

Thank you for your reassurance and for sending the tool - the thought had crossed my mind that the beefier seal you recommended would probably do the job.

Next report hopefully when the screen and cantrails are in.

Cheers,

JEFF

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Hello All,

Well I'm back after a spell of a few weeks of despair and frustration after attempting to fit my newly acquired rear screen to my newly restored hardtop.

My previous optimistic post above proved to be a false dawn. I thought I'd sourced the correct beefier seal identical to that supplied by TRF. As far as I'm aware it's identical and from what I hear is ideal for OEM screens. However, I discovered to my cost that it is the wrong size for the aftermarket screens supplied by the usuals in the UK. The reason for this is that the aftermarket versions have a glass thickness of 4mm which is too small for the 6mm glass gap of the OEM seal. To make it worse because the aftermarket screens are so floppy it is impossible to fit even the correct seal around the screen and have it stay on before fitting it to the hardtop.

What followed was a couple of weeks pause in activity to allow time for some further thought and research.

I spoke with Rimmers who I'd purchased my screen from regarding the specifications of the screen seal that they sold with their aftermarket screen. They said it was OEM but had no idea of its actual dimensions. I then contacted Moss and asked them what the thickness of their aftermarket screens were and they said 4mm. They had no idea of the spec of their screen seal and suggested I submit a technical query to them which I duly did. After a week they replied to say the glass gap in their seal was 4mm (therefore not OEM spec for those who may need one). I suggested to them it would be helpful if they declared the specification of their seals on their parts list.

Armed with this information I reviewed the range of widscreen trim offered by Phoenix and found a seal which looked to have an ideal specification - Glass gap 4mm, body gap 3mm and clearance 7mm. Very similar in spec to the original beefy OEM seal but with a narrower glass gap.

So, to work! This proved to be easier said than done. I tried inserting the screen using the 'string' method without success. There were two problems - first, the seal wouldn't stay around the glass and the string kept falling out of the gap in the seal. It was obvious no matter how long I tried there was no way I'd be able to fit the glass using this method. The second issue was that the screen as delivered seemed to be slightly too large for the hole in my hardtop.

So what to do? From a left over piece of screen seal I cut four pieces each of about 2 inches in length and placed two of these near each lower corner along the base of the screen frame and two in the same position on the upper frame. I then carefully slotted the screen into the bottom two (using gravity to hold them in and then tried to slot the top of the screen into the upper two to see if the screen fitted the aperture in the hardtop. They didn't - it was clear that while the screen fitted the aperture almost perfectly there was very little gap between the screen and frame. Insufficient for it to  slot into the upper two pieces of screen seal without forcing it. In order for the screen to fit into the seal, the screen needs to have a gap of at least 5mm all the way round. (the corresponding clearance dimension of the seal is 7mm)

Rimmers had not said anything about the screen needing to be cut. Indeed when it was delivered to me it was wrapped in many layers of soft tissue and bubble wrap with all its edges smooth and polished - it looked like the finished article. I hadn't realised that in order for it to fit I'd need to take an axe to this seemingly precious £200 cargo! After some time to reflect and with much trepidation I marked a cut line on a strip of masking tape fixed to the top and sides of the screen. I did this while the glass was held by the 4 pieces of rubber around the screen aperture so I could judge how much perspex needed to be removed. Then after moving the screen to a bench I used a dremel cut off disc to carefully cut off approx 5mm from across the top of the screen and from the top corners but ensuring I kept the general overall shape. Having done this I reinserted the screen into the screen aperture holding it in by the four short pieces of screen seal as previously in order to check the gap was consistent all the way round the frame. When I was satisfied the gap was correct it was time to fit the screen into the frame using my new screen seal. First, I fitted the seal into the screen frame without the glass and cut it to length, joining the two ends at the centre of the lower frame using super glue. Having done this I then inserted the screen into the lower part of the seal using gravity to hold it and then went round pressing on the screen and working the seal over the edges of the screen. This was done all around the screen working from the outside and inside of the car, whichever was easiest and required and where necessary carefully using plastic windscreen fitting tools to push and pull the seal up and over the glass. It's quite a tough job, it needs care and its best to have a helper on theb other side of the glass so that it can be held against the seal while the seal is teased over the edge of the glass. To my relief, after an hour or so using this technique the glass was in! Hoooooray! This was followed by the fitting of the filler which went in relatively easily using the special tool.

Interestingly, before I fitted the filler I looked up how to use the special fitting tool on Google. The first You Tube clip I came across showed exactly the same method I'd used on how to fit a windscreen to a classic car. Their method, fit the screen seal to the car first, then glass into the lower channel then manipulate the screen and glass using plastic screen fitting tools - I was amazed at the coincidence! My thoughts were that if I'd used the 'string' method I'd probably still be working on it now - probably only to ultimatley hang myself with it!

See photos below of the finished job.

While I was doing my research on how to fit the screen I came across a very interesting piece of information regarding the spring steel listing rail that fits across the inside centre of the hardtop. I'd thought, based on comments I've previously read on the Forum that it was fitted to reduce the amount of reverberation from the roof. In actual fact the factory sent an instruction out in July 1957 (not for publication) to dealers that this rail be fitted. The reason given was to avoid the headlining ending up round the occupants ears (festooning) when the adhesive failed. This was considered a cost effective solution when compared with the cost of retrimming the hardtop! Maybe reducing reverberation was an unintended consequence!? I'll send a copy in my next post.

Now for the cantrails!

All the best,

JEFF

967737070_TR3RearScreen.thumb.JPG.1b66402e9a26c0b496db45886e686f23.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well done Jeff

what a nightmare. I’m glad I re-used my rear screen despite the odd scratch

your finished result looks great

H

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Hamish - it was a journey of discovery!

Hopefully there's a few pointers in here that will help others.

Almost reached the end of the world and dropped off!

Cheers,

JEFF

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeff,

A fantastic job, and a brilliant write-up. 

I will be following in your footsteps, but probably not for a good few months. I currently have the choice of a pretty shabby original screen or a repro one of distinctly dubious quality which, if I use it, will certainly need trimming. Please could you add the code for the seal that you ended up using for future reference.

Dave

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Dave,

The seal is a Claytonite seal from Phoenix IRS 2343 at £3.90 per metre.

Good luck - the trick is to trim the glass to the correct size, then everything comes together.

Cheers,

JEFFR

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

I used this stuff. 
seem I can’t revisit the product in eBay due to a glitch

 

4B76B0F1-2EF0-4174-905C-A23E73347AF9.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK thanks Jeff, before seeing your post (thanks) I ordered some 6mm dia door seal (pt number 266-BLK) from Woolies and it fits well, looks as yours so may be the same?   £10 for 2 metres so saved £45 to spend on more toys. The challenge is pushing it on without rucking up the lining. I'll probably run some Captain Tolly's creeping crack cure into the top on the outside just in case the seal to the painted steel is not perfect - water may sit in the groove and seep down and then get soaked up by the head lining? Yes, it really is called creeping crack cure, amazing stuff for window seal leaks.

Also ordered 2 metres of  Woolies pt number 113 door seal. This has a 7mm dia tube and is perfect for the cantrail-sidescreen seal. Mine is an early HT with screw holes for this seal but it pushed on and stays there. Looks great and near perfect seal to the sidescreens.

Next is to fit the front seal between the HT and the screen. I never had one and it always seemed to seal OK.  The top narrow side of "H" section does not comfortably fit over the spot welded fold - particularly at the ends that have had major surgery. The screws don't help so considering carefully removing the top-rear sealing 'wall' and rely on the screws to hold in place. 

This thread has been really useful.

Another question:

At the bottom of the parts list page (in Accessories, page 154) a "Snappon Sealing Section" in 6 colours is listed, 2 per hard top. Any clue what these are?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mikej said:

At the bottom of the parts list page (in Accessories, page 154) a "Snappon Sealing Section" in 6 colours is listed, 2 per hard top. Any clue what these are?

They went round the cantrail as a door seal when using the later cantrail seal, theyre colour coded to suit the interior. number 15 here https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/weather-equipment/hard-tops/hardtop-tr2-3a-1953-62.html

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mikej said:

OK thanks Jeff, before seeing your post (thanks) I ordered some 6mm dia door seal (pt number 266-BLK) from Woolies and it fits well, looks as yours so may be the same?   £10 for 2 metres so saved £45 to spend on more toys. The challenge is pushing it on without rucking up the lining. I'll probably run some Captain Tolly's creeping crack cure into the top on the outside just in case the seal to the painted steel is not perfect - water may sit in the groove and seep down and then get soaked up by the head lining? Yes, it really is called creeping crack cure, amazing stuff for window seal leaks.

Also ordered 2 metres of  Woolies pt number 113 door seal. This has a 7mm dia tube and is perfect for the cantrail-sidescreen seal. Mine is an early HT with screw holes for this seal but it pushed on and stays there. Looks great and near perfect seal to the sidescreens.

Next is to fit the front seal between the HT and the screen. I never had one and it always seemed to seal OK.  The top narrow side of "H" section does not comfortably fit over the spot welded fold - particularly at the ends that have had major surgery. The screws don't help so considering carefully removing the top-rear sealing 'wall' and rely on the screws to hold in place. 

This thread has been really useful.

Another question:

At the bottom of the parts list page (in Accessories, page 154) a "Snappon Sealing Section" in 6 colours is listed, 2 per hard top. Any clue what these are?

Hi Mike,

I couldn't quite interpret what you meant in your first paragraph above regarding the headlining rucking up when you pressed on the seal for the HT saddle. I assume it can only mean you've taken the headlining right to the rear edge of the HT. According to the instructions I've seen for fitting the headlining (ex RTF) the lining should end at the brow of the ridge above this edge. I believe this is to avoid the headliner material wicking and sucking up any rainwater carried into the seal.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

JEFF

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was unsure how far down to fit the headlining. A photo of a tatty but apparently original one shows it right to the edge as is a professionally restored one belonging to a local group member. I was/am concerned about wicking, hence the Capt. Tolley's. It looks very tidy though. 

The 16/17mm rear seal is spot on - bolted the HT down, slight squeak and it is sealing without squashing - all the way around. Also the 7mm (black) door seals fit nicely on the early type cantrails. So once again, Woolies have delivered within 24Hrs and at sensible prices. The anti-boom band, made from new spring steel strip and covered could perhaps be thicker/stronger but it stays up and has a useful impact on noise reduction. Can forward supplier details.

Thanks to all above in this thread, I'm almost done...may be.  PS.. My rear window is not great but an original so I have polished the scratches and used it again,  the window seal is also original and the relative ease of fitting it all confirms the critical importance of the dimensions of the window and the seal - which is handed, the shell groove is thinner than the window groove. With no side screens it stays put at 70mph. Well, it did before the restoration....

Mike

Door seal.jpg

HT rear seal.jpg

spring band.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello All,

It's been a few weeks now since I posted anything on this topic as during that time I've been attempting to fit my newly restored hardtop to the body of my TR3.

The car was originally fitted with a hardtop so all the drillings were already present in the body for the bridge pieces and in the windscreen frame for the brackets. I've fitted new bridge pieces and the original brackets to the screen.

Since then I've lost count on how many times I've trial fitted the hardtop to the car. On each occassion the hardtop has lined up fine  and after a bit of adjustment of the the bridge pieces the top has bolted down perfectly to the three bridge pieces on the rear deck and to the the three brackets on the windscreen frame. Try as I might, I cannot get the brackets on the rear two sides of the hardtop to line up with the the bridge pieces on the sides of the tub. They are close, the brackets are maybe 2mm too far out from the bridge pieces to enable a bolt to line up and engage with the thread. See attached photos.

To my knowledge, all the brackets are original and are of the specified size, so I'm reluctant to start making major modifications or fabricating new brackets to overcome the problem. Before I do, has anyone had a similar issue and if so how was it resolved - or maybe I'm just missing something?!

I must say, restoring this hardtop has been by far the most difficult and painful experience I've ever done on my TRs over the past 40 years - and that includes most jobs anyone can do on a TR. First there was fitting the headlining, then fitting a new rear screen followed by fitting new cantrails - everything has been difficult, difficult to find info on and a time consuming pain to actually get done. As you can tell, this hardtop is gradually working its way towards ebay! Anyway, rant over - I now feel much better.

Seriously though, if anyone can advise I'd be most grateful.

Cheers,

JEFFR

image.thumb.png.64099f83710688c1b3c3f09e19e0a6a1.pngimage.thumb.png.cb2b208c4e9453f345806dfed7966fc0.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jeff

it will be worth it...:-)

Do the brackets rotate on the adjusting screws behind your nice lining? Mine are both level with the capping piece. Also is the rear of the HT down? I.e not catching on lift the dot pegs, there are receiving holes in the bottom metal rail of the HT which allow the top to fit closer to the rear capping and allow it to level out......i'm guessing the pegs might be being obstructed by nice new lining material, being taught across the holes? 

 

Iain

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Please familiarise yourself with our Terms and Conditions. By using this site, you agree to the following: Terms of Use.