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We are having a flypast of The Red Arrows at 09.00 tomorrow morning. It should be good as Heathrow is hardly operational so they may be nearer to us than usual.

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https://www.facebook.com/coral.yorke.3/videos/10158076050366183/    Brentford/ Syon Park area click on the link and then click on the picture when it comes up. This was taken from my cousins house.

 

and Hatton besides LHR

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Edited by SuzanneH
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To celebrate VE Day 75 years a couple of good quality Spitfire videos. 

One features the cutting out problem which dogged many early planes, partially resolved as a stop-gap measure by engineer Beatrice Shilling, which became affectionately known as Shilling’s Orifice....

The other video shows a thrilling start up and display by the Spitfire.....at what could be a German Airshow!

Kevin

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18 hours ago, Dave McDonald said:

Mrs McDonald has been busy today making a cake for our private VE75 garden picnic tomorrow, just me and her.

Dave McD

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Will there be any left Dave,   I am not that far away...

You may see the Red Arrows on their way home to Scampton,  I am hoping to.

Enjoy your tea and cake, 

Conrad.

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5 hours ago, boxofbits said:

To celebrate VE Day 75 years a couple of good quality Spitfire videos. 

One features the cutting out problem which dogged many early planes, partially resolved as a stop-gap measure by engineer Beatrice Shilling, which became affectionately known as Shilling’s Orifice....

The other video shows a thrilling start up and display by the Spitfire.....at what could be a German Airshow!

Kevin

Yeah, the “Fatal flaw” video is well known and every times winds me up by

a) Starting off with a minutes worth of flying showing Hurricanes ( which had the same characteristic) not Spitfires, and describing the characteristic as a “flaw”.

Many planes have behaviour which is sometimes compromised by their equipment. In the event a negative gravity bunt ( pushing the stick forward into a dive and the engine coughing and losing power because of interrupted fuel flow caused by the negative G forces) was in service combated by the pilot half rolling the plane into the dive which reversed the fuel flow so there no interruption to fuel flow. Miss Shillings orifice was a washer ( the orifice) placed inside the carb which delayed the fuel starvation enough to overcome the characteristic in service without requiring the roll. Then the fuel system was reworked so the later Spitfire versions didn’t have the characteristic.
I doubt that in service it caused many fatalities, if you were in a Spitfire against Messerschmidt you quickly learned that diving was a bad move because the Me 109 was faster not withstanding the coughing caused by the negative G.
A climb or roll away and turn was the favoured defence.

However the real “ flaw” of both the Spitfire and Hurricane which caused many fatalities to pilots was NOT having a constant speed propellor. The Rotol propellers had a fine or coarse setting for taking off/ landing and being in the wrong manually selected pitch meant a stall which accounted for many lives of inexperienced pilots when many were. The constant speed propellor was introduced June 1940 , just in time for the Battle of Britain.

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
Typo
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2 hours ago, RobH said:

Typo Mick - Constant-SPEED propellor, not 'pitch'.   :)

 

Thanks for “ proofing” me Roger... edited and corrected.

Mick Richards

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23 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Yeah, the “Fatal flaw” video is well known and every times winds me up by

a) Starting off with a minutes worth of flying showing Hurricanes ( which had the same characteristic) not Spitfires, and describing the characteristic as a “flaw”.

Many planes have behaviour which is sometimes compromised by their equipment. In the event a negative gravity bunt ( pushing the stick forward into a dive and the engine coughing and losing power because of interrupted fuel flow caused by the negative G forces) was in service combated by the pilot half rolling the plane into the dive which reversed the fuel flow so there no interruption to fuel flow. Miss Shillings orifice was a washer ( the orifice) placed inside the carb which delayed the fuel starvation enough to overcome the characteristic in service without requiring the roll. Then the fuel system was reworked so the later Spitfire versions didn’t have the characteristic.
I doubt that in service it caused many fatalities, if you were in a Spitfire against Messerschmidt you quickly learned that diving was a bad move because the Me 109 was faster not withstanding the coughing caused by the negative G.
A climb or roll away and turn was the favoured defence.

However the real “ flaw” of both the Spitfire and Hurricane which caused many fatalities to pilots was NOT having a constant speed propellor. The Rotol propellers had a fine or coarse setting for taking off/ landing and being in the wrong manually selected pitch meant a stall which accounted for many lives of inexperienced pilots when many were. The constant speed propellor was introduced June 1940 , just in time for the Battle of Britain.

Mick Richards

Mick

The videos were posted as a light hearted celebration on VE Day and were not intended as a critical appraisal of the plane or early Merlin engine,  especially the Fatal Flaw video which is really only a superficial overview of the engine.

I doubt too it was ‘fatal’ as such though it was a flaw in as much as Supermarine had overlooked the issue. Most are familiar with the problem which affected the early Merlin engines fitted to Hurricanes, Spitfires and Mosquitoes etc.

I do imagine though it must have been a heart stopping and stressful moment for many a pilot when, in the heat of a battle, you were being chased down with a Messerschmidt right behind you and being fired upon, and then to have your engine splutter with clouds of black smoke might surely trigger a fleeting moment of intense panic when you could feel the planes power drop off while trying every move in the book to avoid being shot down and killed.

Those few precious seconds lost when your engine spluttered could well have led to a momentary but ‘fatal’ loss, in that context, of logical integrity and, concentration and on top of that the Luftwaffe pilots were acutely aware of the issue too so we’re trying to force the advantage!

There were obviously numerous other causes of fatality where pilot error was concerned including flying to low, forgetting to lower the undercarriage etc.

Kevin

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On 5/7/2020 at 7:45 PM, Dave McDonald said:

Mrs McDonald has been busy today making a cake for our private VE75 garden picnic tomorrow, just me and her.

Dave McD

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Dave

If you scoff that down :owithout sharing back of the grid for you mate :Pbest get jogging. 

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31 minutes ago, boxofbits said:

Mick

The videos were posted as a light hearted celebration on VE Day and were not intended as a critical appraisal of the plane or early Merlin engine,  especially the Fatal Flaw video which is really only a superficial overview of the engine.

I doubt too it was ‘fatal’ as such though it was a flaw in as much as Supermarine had overlooked the issue. Most are familiar with the problem which affected the early Merlin engines fitted to Hurricanes, Spitfires and Mosquitoes etc.

I do imagine though it must have been a heart stopping and stressful moment for many a pilot when, in the heat of a battle, you were being chased down with a Messerschmidt right behind you and being fired upon, and then to have your engine splutter with clouds of black smoke might surely trigger a fleeting moment of intense panic when you could feel the planes power drop off while trying every move in the book to avoid being shot down and killed.

Those few precious seconds lost when your engine spluttered could well have led to a momentary but ‘fatal’ loss, in that context, of logical integrity and, concentration and on top of that the Luftwaffe pilots were acutely aware of the issue too so we’re trying to force the advantage!

There were obviously numerous other causes of fatality where pilot error was concerned including flying to low, forgetting to lower the undercarriage etc.

Kevin

Yes, I appreciate your intention Kev and have no problem with it, it’s just that particular video that winds me up !
It’s as if it’s an expose, which to some innocents it maybe,  but it’s so well known that it beggars description it can be used for “ click bait” number crunching. Interestingly the Luftwaffe were able to “ test drive” a couple of captured Spitfires and described it as “ a delightful aeroplane” and “ childishly simple to fly” although they too picked up on the manual pitch control on the propellor and marked it as an area of advantage for German pilots.

Mick Richards

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1 hour ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Yes, I appreciate your intention Kev and have no problem with it, it’s just that particular video that winds me up !
It’s as if it’s an expose, which to some innocents it maybe,  but it’s so well known that it beggars description it can be used for “ click bait” number crunching. Interestingly the Luftwaffe were able to “ test drive” a couple of captured Spitfires and described it as “ a delightful aeroplane” and “ childishly simple to fly” although they too picked up on the manual pitch control on the propellor and marked it as an area of advantage for German pilots.

Mick Richards

I fully understand your point of view Mick and agree that it is YouTube  ‘trivia’ intended for click bait, especially as the vlogger himself advertises his many videoes at the end! A friend and I were talking about it a couple of weeks ago which made me look it up again. 

Save for its ease of control and tight turning I wonder if Daimler Benz had a better sorted engine/plane in some areas with the Bosch fuel injection, and interestly the Messerschmitt DB605 109 engine was installed upside down.

Was that to help keep coolant flow around the cylinder heads by gravity I wonder should it get low on glycol ( though this might not protect the cylinder jackets) ?  It was obviously dry sump, so was it something to do with weight distribution, to help ground crews service the plane or a lower engine cowling hence an improved line of sight/ better gun sighting for the pilot?

Kevin

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20 minutes ago, boxofbits said:

I fully understand your point of view Mick and agree that it is YouTube  ‘trivia’ intended for click bait, especially as the vlogger himself advertises his many videoes at the end! A friend and I were talking about it a couple of weeks ago which made me look it up again. 

Save for its ease of control and tight turning I wonder if Daimler Benz had a better sorted engine/plane in some areas with the Bosch fuel injection, and interestly the Messerschmitt DB605 109 engine was installed upside down.

Was that to help keep coolant flow around the cylinder heads by gravity I wonder should it get low on glycol ( though this might not protect the cylinder jackets) ?  It was obviously dry sump, so was it something to do with weight distribution, to help ground crews service the plane or a lower engine cowling hence an improved line of sight/ better gun sighting for the pilot?

Kevin

Well the Me 109 was a well developed and sorted airplane by the time it entered the BoB. Whereas the Spitfire was only tried in the battle of France and so was as “ green” as it’s pilots. The fact it remained in production throughout the war being constantly updated shows the original design was outstanding. The new pressured carburettors were introduced in 1943 from memory which sorted the negative g characteristic and let Miss Shilling have her orifice back lol.

i seem to remember somewhere that the inversion of the Me109 engine was to allow more space for the cannon and nose machine guns to fit, can’t remember but I’m unsure as to whether  the ME used glycol.

Mick Richards

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Back to the more serious business - VE75 Afternoon Tea. See our spread below:-

A selection of sandwiches on white and brown bread, all with crusts cut off of course - Smoked Salmon and Cream Cheese, Egg Mayo with cress and Cheese & Tomato.

Freshly home baked fruit scones with Jam and Clotted Cream - Jam first, cream second of course.

That Union Flag cake and all with Tea and Coffee in china Cups and Saucers.

Washed down finally with a bottle of Prosecco.

What we couldn't understand was, what was all the fuss about this type of afternoon tea - isn't it what everyone has every day?! 

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A great spread Dave, congrats to your wife (and yourself of course).

Mick Richards

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