Surrey top conversion TR4A

[stuart]

16 hours ago, Besalu said:

Very informative Rich and just what i was looking for. I bought my 4a a few months ago and it has been with a mechanic since then. It is almost ready and i am just waiting for the backlight to be re-sprayed and for the glass to be re-fitted with new rubbers. Once i have the car (very soon i hope) my first job is to fit a soft top. I have quotes from all of the providers and looking at the exploded image from Moss i think i understand where the locating pins go on the backlight (62) and on the capper (59). However my capper doesn’t seem to have fittings on the ends for the stud and screw (68 & 69).  

My car was imported to Spain from the UK in 1976 and converted to LHD. So i am not sure if the capper is actually an original 4a or a later model. Some of the elements on the dash are TR6 so not sure if this is also TR6?

I am a tin-basher by trade so i need to take the capper off anyways for a bit of titivation and try and polish it up. If i can manage to tidy it up i will of course keep this original one and attempt to follow your example:

My method is to use  TR4A rail combined with Stuart's  'Z' brackets on the end of the  H frame sticks. After locating the rail by angling up at 60 degrees, as suggested, then locating the rail with the catches, two bolts are then entered through the existing hardtop fixing holes in the frame to lock down the rail securely in a similar way to the TR4/5 catches.

Would anyone by any chance have a more detailed step by step description/photos for a novice like myself? Many thanks, Richard

Thats because your screen capping is a standard convertible car capping. You dont need them if you are going the header rail conversion.as the front of the soft section fits over the header rail the same as on a convertible including the channel and front sealing rubber.

Stuart.

[Besalu]

I finally have my 4A after six months with the mechanic in Barcelona! I drove it for the first time last week. I am happy to be on the road after a long wait!

I bought a soft top to connect to the Surrey backlight and i asked the mechanic if he could fix it for me. He has worked on many TR4's and 4A's but has only come across one Surrey top before and that was a hard top (obviously rare in Spain). So he couldn't (or wouldn't) fix it for me. So i have no choice but to try and do it myself. I have been having a look at it today and i have quite a few questions i am hoping the forum will be able to help me with. First of all, all i have a schematic - i cannot find any more detailed installation instructions anywhere. A link to anything would be greatly appreciated.

At the beginning of this thread Rich says:

The use of  a TR6/later Spitfire soft top hood rail seems to be well documented along with various modifications to the H frame front rails.

However in the case of a TR4/4A a TR6 windscreen frame will also be required along with the  TR6 hood rail, catches and windscreen capping.

In the last post Stuart says: your screen capping is a standard convertible car capping.

So my first question is do i need to change this capping/windscreen frame or is there a way i can make the hood fit what i have?

 

[John Morrison]

Richard,

simplest way for you to make this all work, is NOT to change the windscreen frame, but you WILL need to change the top capping on the frame, that is the shiny ally top.

Simple job just drill out the small pop rivets along the top, swop that capping for a TR4 one and rivet back in place. The TR4 capping has a ledge along the front into which you push the leading edge of the surrey top to locate it, then unfurl the top and bolt through the vertical holes in the backlight.

John.

[stuart]

Yes you will need the correct capping item 70 here https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/weather-equipment/hard-tops/surrey-top-fittings-tr4-4a-1961-67.html

You will also need a pair of nuts on the threaded ends of your "H" frame to adjust the tension on it to make the soft cover fit nicely.

Item 57 on the same diagram.

Stuart.

[Besalu]

Thank you John, very clear and helpful. I have also read in various place that this "tuck under" system is not without potential pitfalls. If i were to fit a TR6 or 1500 Spit capping instead would it be straight forward to fit the catches as well?

[Besalu]

Thank you Stuart, again very helpful. I can see where some of the pieces go which came with the hood but i am unsure where most of the following pieces go

[John Morrison]

6 hours ago, Besalu said:

Thank you John, very clear and helpful. I have also read in various place that this "tuck under" system is not without potential pitfalls. If i were to fit a TR6 or 1500 Spit capping instead would it be straight forward to fit the catches as well?

Hi Richrd,

I actually own a TR4 with surrey top, have for 30 years now.

It is true that the fixing of the front lip of the top can be problematical, but it is simply a case of making sure that the lip of the surrey is properly fixed up in the recess of the top capping, and also that the recess has not over time become a little wider and therefore not gripping the top as well. When you complete your installation, you will have two press studs at either end of the top of the windscreen at each corner, when my surrey did blow out at speed, these two studs held the top, so all that happened was that the centre of the surrey ballooned upwards, bit of a shock when it happened but nothing more.

 

Now over the years, I took the opportunity to gather all the parts together to, convert to the TR6/Spitfire header rail and handles, but it is not an easy task getting everything, and would be very expensive for you, where you live, without the access to good used parts etc.

For instance I bought a tatty Spitfire hood frame complete with header rail and handles for £15 at a spares day some years ago!

So you need a header rail, plus handle assemblies, a complete TR6 windscreen surround, - not cheap these days, then you would need that painted to match your car, you have to fit it, having removed your TR4 frame, probobly change the rubber seals at the same time perhaps the glass also, you have to alter the pram sticks, as in your photo to make them longer, because you cannot keep the location in the top of the header rail as you have it now, they need extending onto th ecorners of the new header rail.

You also need to alter the surrey fabric, removing the sewn in bars it will have now that help location on the top capping, and glue, then rivet the new edge fabric onto the header rail.

 

My advice to you would be, do not do this.

 

If you are determined to go ahead then I can help with detail, photo's etc, but it will cost you at a guess, with second hand parts well in excess of £1000, 00,

new parts probobly three times this amount.

 

Ask me anything else you need to know.

 

John.

[Besalu]

7 hours ago, John Morrison said:

Hi Richrd,

I actually own a TR4 with surrey top, have for 30 years now.

It is true that the fixing of the front lip of the top can be problematical, but it is simply a case of making sure that the lip of the surrey is properly fixed up in the recess of the top capping, and also that the recess has not over time become a little wider and therefore not gripping the top as well. When you complete your installation, you will have two press studs at either end of the top of the windscreen at each corner, when my surrey did blow out at speed, these two studs held the top, so all that happened was that the centre of the surrey ballooned upwards, bit of a shock when it happened but nothing more.

 

Now over the years, I took the opportunity to gather all the parts together to, convert to the TR6/Spitfire header rail and handles, but it is not an easy task getting everything, and would be very expensive for you, where you live, without the access to good used parts etc.

For instance I bought a tatty Spitfire hood frame complete with header rail and handles for £15 at a spares day some years ago!

So you need a header rail, plus handle assemblies, a complete TR6 windscreen surround, - not cheap these days, then you would need that painted to match your car, you have to fit it, having removed your TR4 frame, probobly change the rubber seals at the same time perhaps the glass also, you have to alter the pram sticks, as in your photo to make them longer, because you cannot keep the location in the top of the header rail as you have it now, they need extending onto th ecorners of the new header rail.

You also need to alter the surrey fabric, removing the sewn in bars it will have now that help location on the top capping, and glue, then rivet the new edge fabric onto the header rail.

 

My advice to you would be, do not do this.

 

If you are determined to go ahead then I can help with detail, photo's etc, but it will cost you at a guess, with second hand parts well in excess of £1000, 00,

new parts probobly three times this amount.

 

Ask me anything else you need to know.

 

John.

John, i appreciate the time you spent explaining all this. Decision made - i will get the capper which Stuart pointed out and follow that route.

Thanks again,

Richard

[John Morrison]

Fine Richard,

that is certainly what I would do.

I was thinking I might still have the old capping, IF I have would you like a detailed photo or two,

plus a fabric surrey top, to help explain what actually goes where?

John.

[ianc]

Don't forget the 2 nuts (item 57 in Moss's diagram) mentioned by Stuart - they set the fore/aft position of the frame and are important.

Ian Cornish

[Rob Salisbury]

Hi,

        Have a look at Moss's diagram as mentioned by Stuart, ....... brackets 67 x2 and 5 x2 (611895 and 612435) should be found at the top of the front screen frame and top of the rear Surrey frame (look just inside the rubber seal retainers) these brackets receive hooks 52 x4 (613767) and are attached to the fabric dropdown flaps that go inside the window glasses when they are raised (attachment to the fabric is via some 1/2" wide shirring elastic and a button stud ..... raid the sewing box!!), when these are all fitted the dropdown flaps are nicely tensioned fore and aft.    As your fabric top is new you will have to spend some time getting all the extra fittings in the right place to have the whole thing tensioned properly, above all the gap from the capping to the screen frame that the front tuck under fits into must be correct, but, when fitted properly, the top is good for 145+KPH although the wind noise at these sort of speeds is so loud you need ear defenders, ..... or just slow down!! 

Cheers Rob

[Besalu]

Thank you all for your input. I have successfully fitted the new capper. That was the easy part!

The two nuts screwed on to the end of the H-frame which fits into the backlight are correct like in the attached pic? The Moss diagram says 58 is a washer but i cannot see what benefit a washer would be on this end... Is the locking nut the correct way around?

Rob, I only have one bracket still in place. So i will have to order some of these before i can finish it off.

[roy53]

your windscreen capping is wrong. see Moss catalog .

remove the nylock nut. not requied

Roy

[Rob Salisbury]

The plain nut is adjusted up or down the thread, as required, to evenly tension the fabric top, but leave a section of thread to locate in the backlight, ...... I've never seen the need for the washer.

Cheers Rob