rvwp Posted May 7, 2020 Report Share Posted May 7, 2020 Hi Guys, I have been following with interest Topics on the subject of improving the front attachment of the factory Surry top fitting. The use of a TR6/later Spitfire soft top hood rail seems to be well documented along with various modifications to the H frame front rails. However in the case of a TR4/4A a TR6 windscreen frame will also be required along with the TR6 hood rail, catches and windscreen capping. However, the soft top TR4A has an improved hood fixing using over centre catches. Whilst these may not be as positive in the pull direction as the TR6, to be able to use this hood rail would simplify my conversion and use what I have. Has to be better than the original triumph 'tuck under' arrangement. I do not have an H frame yet ( if anybody has one I'm buying) so it's difficult to fully assess the viability. My question is, has anybody done this already. Don't want to spend a lot of time and effort if my assumptions are flawed. I see Revingtons sell a complete updated Surrey top to their own design using I believe a TR6 hood rail and catches but expensive . They sell an additional kit to modify the top of a TR4A windscreen frame to accommodate the TR6 hood rail. Anybody been down that route? Thanks Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted May 7, 2020 Report Share Posted May 7, 2020 Hi Rich, I am possibly the only person that likes the original TR4/4A convertible/surrey attachment. Indeed it is slower to erect but functions well once up. There have been well documented disasters but they are probably caused by poor assembly of the critical parts. The cap/frame gap needs to be correct for the width of metal plates in the front of the fabric. The fabric needs to be pulled tight when in use - otherwise the front can simply unclip. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PaulAnderson Posted May 7, 2020 Report Share Posted May 7, 2020 Agreed, I have the original backlight, (replacement) mohair surrey top and original windscreen header on my 4A and it works fine. It stays in position at all speeds. Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
signalredshaker Posted May 7, 2020 Report Share Posted May 7, 2020 Agreed- again. The original configuration, is put up correctly is brilliant and does NOT leak. At all. (Its just a bit of a faff which needs kind weather - well why put it up unless its raining? -You may well have a point).. James Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qkingston Posted May 7, 2020 Report Share Posted May 7, 2020 This is exactly what I am investigating. Progressing a full rebuild of a ex-US 4a and wanted to fit the surrey soft top as you describe. Given that I'm starting with a blank canvas (sort of), I am keen to optimise the arrangement whilst it's (relatively) easy. So I've got a Spitfire 1500 header rail plus the cam locks, H-frame etc, but as I've been discussing with Stuart the challenge doesn't end there. Not only do you need some method of fixing the cam locks into the frame (rivnuts?) but more importantly the TR6 frame has indents for the cam locks so that the capping rail will fit over them ; the top of the 4a frame being flat! So I'm looking at how easy it might be to 'let in' a couple of indented sections into the top of my frame, TR6 frames being ridiculously expensive - but I'm not going to be beaten! I might even look at the RTR option. Keep in touch Rgds David Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted May 7, 2020 Report Share Posted May 7, 2020 Only the factory capping for the TR4/Surrey top was ever produced in chromed brass. No peer for bling! I have used these since 1994 happily enough, with some extremely tight at the front lip and some loose. They don't see 100 mph duty ( usually no more than 80 mph); that is for top off or hardtop on modes. Except for X-country or overnight trips in warm weather I don't use the soft top unless caught in the rain. Then, best to fit it when threatened as pop up showers cannot be diverted from the cockpit in time. I came close to driving into an open garage in one downpour; I kept going and fortunately didn't have to stop before it let up, the rain blowing over 90%. I have fitted it under highway overpasses too. Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted May 7, 2020 Report Share Posted May 7, 2020 (edited) ...I should add, the chromed brass will show fine scratches if the soft top is fitted. The one in the picture has never had its on. If ever it does it will get masking tape on first. My driver got one a few years ago and that's how I know. No tape for the poor bugger. Tom Edited May 7, 2020 by Tom Fremont Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted May 8, 2020 Report Share Posted May 8, 2020 I have discussed with quite a few of you both off and online about this, I dont think the 4a over centre catch arrangement would work with the "H" frame as it pulls the header rail down in more of a backwards motion which works fine in original form as the frame is strong enough to act against this but the "H" isnt anywhere near as strong, I was going to do this with mine as an experiment but never got round to it as these days Im happier running the car with the solid roof on as a closed coupe. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rvwp Posted May 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2020 OK, thanks Stuart, yes we did discuss this, just thought someone might have tried to use a 4A front rail. Not going to go down that route, so I'll shut up now. Probably will go with original method and take care when fitting the windscreen cap to ensure an adequate lip. Roger's method of a knurled nut at the rear to adjust the tension seems to improve matters. Thanks Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
signalredshaker Posted May 8, 2020 Report Share Posted May 8, 2020 Yes, the chrome capping can have a hard time but as Tom says it's tops in the bling department. The gap, though, can be easily adjusted and of course it can be re-chromed pretty easily to smarten it up. They are a bit rare though. James Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted May 8, 2020 Report Share Posted May 8, 2020 55 minutes ago, signalredshaker said: Yes, the chrome capping can have a hard time but as Tom says it's tops in the bling department. The gap, though, can be easily adjusted and of course it can be re-chromed pretty easily to smarten it up. They are a bit rare though. James Once you get the chrome capping chances are you will want the alloy screen trim too. I've got the back trim but the front is not ready for prime time yet. Then maybe I'll run out of bling bits to fit. Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rvwp Posted May 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2020 Hi Guys, Just one final question. As I am probably going down the original Triumph method, which supplier provides the best SURREY TOP windscreen capping ie: with the correct depth of lip to trap the top front? Maybe there is only one manufacture, surprising if there was several tooled up to make these? Does any make it out of stainless steel? Cheers Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jase Posted May 9, 2020 Report Share Posted May 9, 2020 I covered my new one in 3M paint protection film, seems to be working so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted May 9, 2020 Report Share Posted May 9, 2020 16 hours ago, rvwp said: Hi Guys, Just one final question. As I am probably going down the original Triumph method, which supplier provides the best SURREY TOP windscreen capping ie: with the correct depth of lip to trap the top front? Maybe there is only one manufacture, surprising if there was several tooled up to make these? Does any make it out of stainless steel? Cheers Rich We've been talking about originals; repros in anodized aluminium look very good with the exception that they lack the little ears which sit under the snaps ( poppers? not sure what you call them ). I never understood why they did this, and maybe they corrected it by now. Anyway, the originals may hang on to the vinyl better for having the ends anchored. Originals in fine condition are very very rare today. Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rvwp Posted May 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2020 Hi Guys, Just one more final question. Has anybody used the RevingtonTR conversion kit which effectively adds TR6 catch points to TR4/4A windscreen, negating the need to replace the windscreen frame to when using a TR6 hood front rail to secure the front of the Surry top. Is it screw on or weld on plates? Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted May 13, 2020 Report Share Posted May 13, 2020 You could just cut the mountings out of a knackered TR6 or Spitfire screen frame and let into yours. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rvwp Posted May 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2020 Hi Guys, At last I've come to decision on how to convert my TR4A from a Soft top to a Surry. I have read many comments of the attachment of the front of the Surry top at the front using the original Triumph 'tuck under' method which seems to be problematic. (sorry Roger) Having looked at the TR5/6 hood front rail method which also requires an upgrade to a TR5/6 windscreen and capping, all getting expensive! However, taking note of Stuart's concern over the way the TR4A centre work and would not pull the rail down in the same way as the TR5/6 1/4 turn clamps, I shall still use the TR4A front rail with modifications. My method is to use TR4A rail combined with Stuart's 'Z' brackets on the end of the H frame sticks. After locating the rail by angling up at 60 degrees, as suggested, then locating the rail with the catches, two bolts are then entered through the existing hardtop fixing holes in the frame to lock down the rail securely in a similar way to the TR4/5 catches. To provide this facility a hole has to be drilled in the TR4A rail in line with these hardtop fixing holes, say 5/16, (M8) and a nut welded to the inside of the rail. This has to be positioned carefully so that when feeding the bolt through the frame it locates this nut. I intend using a SS threaded bolt made up with a SS wing nut for ease of use. Both available cheaply from Toolstation (M8). The end of the bolt will have a turned down portion at the end to aid entry into the nut. The cost of this modification if you have a TR4A soft top rail is only the cost of the SS bolt and nut. Of course you may have to buy a new fabric Surry top if you cannot unpick the front to provide material to fold around the head rail. I have to buy one anyway. Trials on the bench with my TR4A windscreen is very positive and it does work. I don't believe that the time to put the Surry top up using this method will differ at all from using the TR4/5 rail. In any case using either method if caught in a sudden downpour means you are going to get wet! Any comments? Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qkingston Posted May 17, 2020 Report Share Posted May 17, 2020 Hi Rich, Ive decided to go down a slightly different route; keeping the 4a frame, using the RTR adapted brackets/cam locks, with a TR5/6 screen capping and Spitfire 1500 soft top header rail...what could possibly go wrong David Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rvwp Posted May 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2020 Hi David, Had thought about that route, but after talking to Revingtons and Stuart, I could not get a full appreciation of the work required to add the bracketry to the 4A frame. Still pretty expensive though. Just completed adding the nuts to the 4A frame in line with the hardtop fixing holes. Must say works a treat and is firmly fixed, don't really need the catches except for locating the rail. One benefit it using the 4A rail is that it utilises the existing capping so still looks original without the Surry top fitted. Good luck with the Revingtons mod. Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BRENDA1 Posted May 17, 2020 Report Share Posted May 17, 2020 Hi Rich, this sound like a good idea to make life a little easier, could you possibly post some photos. Mike Redrose Group Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rvwp Posted May 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2020 Hi Mike, Not much to show really. No modifications to the screen frame , just a couple of nuts added to the inside of the rail in line with the hardtop bolt holes, existing. I would post picture of what I've done, but it seems beyond me to be able to attach photo's, even though I have resized etc? Cheers Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim T Posted May 18, 2020 Report Share Posted May 18, 2020 Rich, I too would be interested to see them please! Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim T Posted May 20, 2020 Report Share Posted May 20, 2020 Photos posted on behalf of Rich (RVWP). Cheers, Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
d2alfa Posted May 22, 2020 Report Share Posted May 22, 2020 Hi, I used the original 4a capping and soft top fixing clamps with the supporting frame landing on MGB supports. It works well enough. Regards David Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rvwp Posted September 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2020 Hi All, Have finally fitted my surrey top to my 4A utilising the the original 4A soft top header. As previously stated above as well as using the 4A catches I also put two SS bolts through the hardtop fixing holes in the windscreen frame into the rail to added threaded plates (see picture above) as added security and clamping to stop the rail possibly tipping back. It seems to have worked out very well and cost nothing, no expensive TR6 windscreen frame/capping and rail with TR6 catches. I would definitely recommend this solution. Maybe takes a couple of more minutes to screw in the additional bolts. On to the next job, rebuilding the seats! Cheers Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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