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Rocker Shaft & Valves


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6 hours ago, John McCormack said:

Hi Colin,

In normal operation the oil flows from the rocker hole down the rocker into the pushrod cup and overflows. With the general oil floating around in there the pushrod should be wet with oil. The blocked rocker oil gallery is probably why it has gone rusty.

The pushrod should be ok if it isn't bent and the ends aren't pitted or discoloured. They get pitted and discoloured because of heat build up due to poor lubrication. Check the pushrod cup and if it is ok reinstall the pushrod.

By rocker gaps I assume you mean the spaces between rockers along the rocker shaft, not the tappet gaps. I've never checked the gaps on the shaft, I just put the rockers and springs/spacers on the shaft and have never had a problem. Tappets I set to the 10 thou in the manual, a bit of a loose gap as all my TRs have run better with a very slightly bigger gap.

Hello again John and thanks for coming back. OK I will take out all the pushrods, check not bent and ends are free of discolouration. I will do one at a time to keep them in the same position.

I assume there are no pitfalls of getting them out or back in without needing to take the head off, ie I can`t make an silly mistakes here like something drops down inside, can I?

Also can I clean up the tarnished areas with some fine emery paper, cleaned, followed by an oiling?

My tappets are set to 14 thou IN,  and 18 EX, as I have a fast road cam, don`t know which one. I think these gaps should be larger but it seems to be OK?

One further question please. The WSM doesn't give any specific details for refitting the rocker shaft to the head. Can I just bolt it down in the position it is in, ie against all 12 springs  until the pedestals are fully seated on the head? Is there a sequence on tightening the 6 pedestals or just do all equally? Would it be better to undo the rockers, tighten the pedisals then bring the valves into position with the rocker adjustment screw?

A lot of questions, but do appreciate your advice.

Colin. 

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23 hours ago, c.hydes said:

Hello again John and thanks for coming back. OK I will take out all the pushrods, check not bent and ends are free of discolouration. I will do one at a time to keep them in the same position.

I assume there are no pitfalls of getting them out or back in without needing to take the head off, ie I can`t make an silly mistakes here like something drops down inside, can I?

Also can I clean up the tarnished areas with some fine emery paper, cleaned, followed by an oiling?

My tappets are set to 14 thou IN,  and 18 EX, as I have a fast road cam, don`t know which one. I think these gaps should be larger but it seems to be OK?

One further question please. The WSM doesn't give any specific details for refitting the rocker shaft to the head. Can I just bolt it down in the position it is in, ie against all 12 springs  until the pedestals are fully seated on the head? Is there a sequence on tightening the 6 pedestals or just do all equally? Would it be better to undo the rockers, tighten the pedisals then bring the valves into position with the rocker adjustment screw?

A lot of questions, but do appreciate your advice.

Colin. 

You will find that the pushrods will 'stick' to the cam follower down in the engine block. This is just suction because of the oil in the follower. It is a simple job to twist and rock the pushrod until the suction is broken. If you do lift a follower a bit of perseverance with the pushrod will get it down again.

I didn't do anything to my slightly tarnished pushrod before putting it back in. If the cup in the pushrod end is discoloured, or pitted, replace the pushrod. They are cheap. When you replace it you will need to ensure you get the right length pushrod. The two PI models had different lengths and I am sure that there are numerous lengths and yours might be non standard due to the cam.

Tappet gaps is also dependent on modifications so if they aren't too noisy and the car goes well they are probably ok.

Put the rocker on making sure all the rocker pins are seated properly in the pushrod cups. This is critical. Then tighten it down progressively from the middle towards the ends. I think they are about 20 lb/ft torque. I do mine at 10-15 first and then do it to the correct torque, centre ones first and then the outer ones. I do slacken the rockers off first and then readjust them.

Hope this helps. It is a straightforward job. The only problems I have had are a dislodged follower which went back down with prodding and not making sure the pins were in the pushrod cups. That is in 44 years of TR ownership (a TR2 I still have).

Get those right and take your time. It is a satisfying task to complete yourself.

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16 minutes ago, John McCormack said:

You will find that the pushrods will 'stick' to the cam follower down in the engine block. This is just suction because of the oil in the follower. It is a simple job to twist and rock the pushrod until the suction is broken. If you do lift a follower a bit of perseverance with the pushrod will get it down again.

I didn't do anything to my slightly tarnished pushrod before putting it back in. If the cup in the pushrod end is discoloured, or pitted, replace the pushrod. They are cheap. When you replace it you will need to ensure you get the right length pushrod. The two PI models had different lengths and I am sure that there are numerous lengths and yours might be non standard due to the cam.

Tappet gaps is also dependent on modifications so if they aren't too noisy and the car goes well they are probably ok.

Put the rocker on making sure all the rocker pins are seated properly in the pushrod cups. This is critical. Then tighten it down progressively from the middle towards the ends. I think they are about 20 lb/ft torque. I do mine at 10-15 first and then do it to the correct torque, centre ones first and then the outer ones. I do slacken the rockers off first and then readjust them.

Hope this helps. It is a straightforward job. The only problems I have had are a dislodged follower which went back down with prodding and not making sure the pins were in the pushrod cups. That is in 44 years of TR ownership (a TR2 I still have).

Get those right and take your time. It is a satisfying task to complete yourself.

Hello John, brilliant and very succinct, I cant go wrong, thank you so much.

Guess I should fill up/prime the inside of the rocker shaft before starting?

I just hope now that the clean up oils all the rockers now.

Regards, Colin.

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1 hour ago, c.hydes said:

Hello John, brilliant and very succinct, I cant go wrong, thank you so much.

Guess I should fill up/prime the inside of the rocker shaft before starting?

I just hope now that the clean up oils all the rockers now.

Regards, Colin.

Yes, oil everything so it is really lubricated as it goes together. When you have it all assembled get an oil can and cover the rocker shaft and rockers AND fill the pushrod cups with oil.

Rather than spread oil everywhere trying to see if they are all flowing oil I took my car for a 10km drive and then took the rocker cover off. If all the pushrod cups were full of oil all was good. Or you can use rags to cover the engine and run it while you watch.

I am really into these cars and own a TR6 and a couple of TR2s. They are simple to work on and great fun to drive. Belonging and contributing to a club is a great way to enjoy them.

Edited by John McCormack
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3 minutes ago, John McCormack said:

Yes, oil everything so it is really lubricated as it goes together. When you have it all assembled get an oil can and cover the rocker shaft and rockers AND fill the pushrod cups with oil.

Rather than spread oil everywhere trying to see if they are all flowing oil I took my car for a 10km drive and then took the rocker cover off. If all the pushrod cups were full of oil all was good. Or you can use rags to cover the engine and run it while you watch.

I am really into these cars and own a TR6 and a couple of TR2s. They are simple to work on and great fun to drive. Belonging and contributing to a club is a great way to enjoy them.

Understood John. 

I see from the news, that the "Amber Nectar" is now available in bars & pubs again in Sydney.

Colin.

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OK, I have now re-installed the rocker shaft, adjusted tappets with new clean oil following all the advice. This is the result:

After start up and idle for 15 minutes (hot), all 12 pushrods cups were filled with the old blackish oil,  so this proves that the rear bottom holes are doing their job and oiling the pushrods down the rocker shaft.

When the shaft locking screw was removed from the pedestal a lot of black oil flowed out. This proves that the rocker is getting enough oil under pressure There was blackish oil emerging out of the shaft in all 12 positions either side of the pedestals BUT a lot more at the middle of the shaft as opposed to the ends. Regarding the top rocker holes, no blackish oil emerged from rockers 3 or 11, all others had oil which ran down towards the rocker tip. When 3 & 11 rockers were pushed slightly off the pedestal approx 1-2 mm, oil did then start to emerge. 

Took for a good run (lots of revs), with cover on for 20 minutes and then removed the cover.  Cover is well oiled and a lot more oil over the shaft, but 3 & 11 again seemed dryer than the rest at the rocker tips.

So what do we think, carry on regardless? 

If someone said that I have a problem based on the above, I will invest in new shaft & rockers if the science proves correct.

Cheers, Colin.

 

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Hi Colin,

because you have oil at all 12 rockers now I would run it and put “installing a new tuftrided rockershaft” on my winter list.
Why was the oil black? Is your engine (sump) oil clean? 
Cheers,

Waldi

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Hello Waldi, sorry but I have oil at all 12 pushrod cups at the back, as well as on the shaft either side of pedestals, but not out of the top holes on Nos 3 & 11, this is my worry, why?

My oil is "blackish", as not been changed for a year, ie not brand new. The reason I like the "blackish" is it proves that the oil gallery from down below is getting into the shaft and pumping, , if that makes sense?

Colin.  

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3 hours ago, c.hydes said:

"If someone said that I have a problem based on the above, I will invest in new shaft & rockers if the science proves correct".

For what it's worth, I think joining the Club is a good investment too,

The advice is mostly coming from Club members, after all,

Cheers, David.

 

 

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Followed this with interest, I have a new shaft in the garage, because the rockers were so badly worn I decided to replace this with a tuftrided shaft complete with rockers. So tonight I removed the plugs from the  one I have in the garage, low and behold I got 5 small pieces of swarf out. Looking down the shaft you can see burs protruding from the oil holes.

Think I'll be taking the new set off the engine. 

Edited by Mark69
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Hi Colin,
maybe not very helpful but I wonder how many rockers on our cars do not give oil.
i would still put it on my winterlist. Note Marks alert above too.

Hi Mark,
I have one on stock too, it cane from Moss. Should I inspect it?

(yes I know, that is an indirect question).

Thanks,

Waldi

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On 5/16/2020 at 7:38 PM, c.hydes said:

Understood John. 

I see from the news, that the "Amber Nectar" is now available in bars & pubs again in Sydney.

Colin.

Yep, things are opening up here. Too slowly for my liking but it is what it is.

I wouldn't be too concerned at a lack of oil from the top hole. It is probably because the shaft/rocker is worn and there isn't enough pressure left to get it to the top. If there is enough to keep the pushrod cup full it should be OK. The load on the shaft is at the bottom which should be lubricated.

In due course get a new shaft and resleeve the rockers.

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10 hours ago, John McCormack said:

Yep, things are opening up here. Too slowly for my liking but it is what it is.

I wouldn't be too concerned at a lack of oil from the top hole. It is probably because the shaft/rocker is worn and there isn't enough pressure left to get it to the top. If there is enough to keep the pushrod cup full it should be OK. The load on the shaft is at the bottom which should be lubricated.

In due course get a new shaft and resleeve the rockers.

Hi Mark, Waldi and John. Thanks so much for your inputs, as well as others.

I will do as recommended, run over the summer here (UK), and then look at replacing before next year. 

Will be looking for some guidance later on what to buy and what to ovoid.

Best regards, Colin.

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22 minutes ago, c.hydes said:

Hi Mark, Waldi and John. Thanks so much for your inputs, as well as others.

I will do as recommended, run over the summer here (UK), and then look at replacing before next year. 

Will be looking for some guidance later on what to buy and what to ovoid.

Best regards, Colin.

So back to what I said at the start but good thing is you had a go

When buying a new set make sure they have been Rockwell tested

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14 minutes ago, ntc said:

So back to what I said at the start but good thing is you had a go

When buying a new set make sure they have been Rockwell tested

Yes Neil, quite correct, but have enjoyed "having a play". thanks for your help.

Colin. 

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7 hours ago, c.hydes said:

David, TR Register Member No. 34471, June 1999.

Colin.

My most sincere apologies, Colin! Your name comes up as "registered user", as opposed to "Register member". Now I'll now that the system is faulty. Once again, I'm sorry.

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Hi Colin,

the same happened to me. I did send an e-mail to the TR register office and it was corrected in no time. Maybe you can do this yourselves in the settings, if so I’m sure someone will let us know soon.

Cheers,

Waldi

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13 minutes ago, Mark69 said:

Just got this lot out the rockers shaft, fitted to the engine, well worth inspecting. One of the holes was partial blocked. 

Mark

15900053908822998341513156371958.jpg

And that's your new shaft ? you need to find where that has come from.

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13 hours ago, DavidBee said:

My most sincere apologies, Colin! Your name comes up as "registered user", as opposed to "Register member". Now I'll now that the system is faulty. Once again, I'm sorry.

David no problems.

I was in the Register for many years, then it lapsed when their register insurance changed and wasn't happy with it, but now back in.

I will update the database now to reflect membership.

Cheers, Colin.

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7 hours ago, c.hydes said:

David no problems.

I was in the Register for many years, then it lapsed when their register insurance changed and wasn't happy with it, but now back in.

I will update the database now to reflect membership.

Cheers, Colin.

Still, I was wrong to make assumptions. Will try not to in future.

Best, David

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One little tip. Locktight the litte Phillips grubscrew when you put it back. The person that did my head just screwed it in. Result 4 O'clock in the morning on the motorway the engine stopped. Great only 550 miles to go. To cut a very long story short, the screw fell out and landed in the sump (magnetic plug) the shaft turned and no oilways were being fed. Rockers jammed, hence push rod bent and the valves plus guides suffered. One piece of luck the cam was ok.

Edited by Peter Douglas Winn
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6 minutes ago, Peter Douglas Winn said:

One little tip. Locktight the litte Phillips grubscrew when you put it back. The person that did my head just screwed it in. Result 4 O'clock in the morning on the motorway the engine stopped. Great only 550 miles to go. To cut a very long story short, the screw fell and landed in the sump (magnetic plug) the shaft turned and no oilways were being fed. Rockers jammed, hence push rod bent and the valves plus guides suffered. One piece of luck the cam was ok.

Hello Peter, as per my conclusion above I have put back my rocker shaft for the time being and will have a think about a replacement  and refurbished rockers over the winter. 

My shaft had the original "swaged in cups", and were very tight. From what you say I guess the replacement shafts have a threaded grub screw at each end

Or..................are you talking about the single screw that locates the shaft to the rear pedestal? If your are, then no Its tight but not Loctited. 

Regards, Colin.

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