Rocker Shaft & Valves

[c.hydes]

21 hours ago, ntc said:

Hi

Leave the shaft alone it may only be a small blockage just might force it out. If the oil comes out beside the rocker then oil is getting there also remember hot oil is what you need this you will not see on a cold engine also hot oil will always find the easy way out 

Hi Neil, so I have wiped all the oil of the tops of the rockers as well as under the rocker, from springs and from the sides of the pedestal where the rocker touches. All rocker holes blocked with thin aluminium tape. After about 5 minutes there was oil at the rocker/pedestal, but not at No 11 hole. At 20 minutes there was some oil in the hole, but not emerging. There was oil emerging along the shaft in all the other positions as well.

I then switched off removed all blocking tapes for the other rockers. Started up again whilst hot and oil emerged except No. 11, although No`s 12, 10 and 9 seemed reluctant to emerge. However when all these 4 rockers were just moved slightly off the pedestal against the spring it started to flow out. See Photo attached when moved off. 

Suggestions where to go now please?

Cheers,

Colin.

 

[Waldi]

Hi Colin,

have you tried compressed air on the hole in #11?

If already done, and this is bothering you, remove the rocker shaft assembly as per the WSM, open it Inspect it and clean it.

On re-assembly, do not forget to check clearances.

Cheers,
Waldi

[ntc]

1 hour ago, Waldi said:

Hi Colin,

have you tried compressed air on the hole in #11?

If already done, and this is bothering you, remove the rocker shaft assembly as per the WSM, open it Inspect it and clean it.

On re-assembly, do not forget to check clearances.

Cheers,
Waldi

Blowing the arm will do nowt 

[c.hydes]

Hi Waldi, I dont have compressed air but tried tried WD 40. The hole is clear down to the shaft as reamed out with various sized drills. No crud came out. What I don`t understand is if you push the rocker even a very small amount they start to oil properly. Could this crud under the rocker, ie in the machined oiling groove on the shaft and not the hole? Guess I`am looking at removing the rocker and inspecting/measuring the rockers and shaft for excessive clearance wear.

Cheers, Colin. 

[Waldi]

Hi Colin, hard to tell why this one doesn’t oil and the others don’t. Debris is most likely cause, as Ed experienced. What is stopping you to remove it? Go for it:)

cheers,

Waldi

[c.hydes]

17 minutes ago, Waldi said:

Hi Colin, hard to tell why this one doesn’t oil and the others don’t. Debris is most likely cause, as Ed experienced. What is stopping you to remove it? Go for it:)

cheers,

Waldi

Yeah Waldi you are right, guess that`s the only proper "good engineering principle" left. I will go for it tomorrow. Hopefully Neil will come back on the test today with taped up rocker holes and give me his guidance/advice as well.

 Hey ho, so much to learn, but so little time.

Cheers, Colin.

[ntc]

Colin

There is a small hole at every rocker on the shaft and as you say a small channel beside it, you could just try and slide the rocker to try and find it some are close but some not you could also remove the locking screw and rotate it.But as I said you have plenty of oil up there unlike some unless you are doing high miles and most don’t leave it,if it bugs you that much then remove and clean . Also the engine on idle cold is totally different to hot at 3000rpm plus on the road 

Regards

Neil

Edited May 8, 2020 by ntc

[c.hydes]

16 minutes ago, ntc said:

Colin

There is a small hole at every rocker on the shaft and as you say a small channel beside it, you could just try and slide the rocker to try and find it some are close but some not you could also remove the locking screw and rotate it.But as I said you have plenty of oil up there unlike some unless you are doing high miles and most don’t leave it,if it bugs you that much then remove and clean 

Regards

Neil

Thanks Neil, when you say ..................."remove screw and rotate", do you mean rotate shaft whilst its running to see if they all then oil properly?

I have moved the rocker sideways in its locked present position and it then oils.

Colin.

[ntc]

Colin

Big No! sometimes you can just rotate it by hand and see the small though the rocker hole moving it side to side.

[Oddball]

If this was my car I would be removing the shaft, dismantling it and giving it all a good clean and inspection. If you remove all the spacers,springs and rockers in order and feed them onto a length of cord or wire, that will keep the order correct for reassembling. 
 

Cameron

[astontr6]

On 5/4/2020 at 12:50 PM, c.hydes said:

John/Waldi: Agreed you did recommend that earlier. I suppose taking off the rocker gear and removing all the parts and giving everything a good clean up isn`t too complicated - correct? Any tips on what to be careful off, or what not to do would be useful. If all the parts don`t show any worries or wear can I just re-assemble and set up correct rocker gaps? Also how do I get the blanking plugs off each end , and will they go back on again without falling out?

Bruce: when you say .........."oil gallery on the side of the block and removal of blanking plugs/clean out", you are not referring to the rocker shaft -correct? If not is this a big strip down, how do you do it?

Thanks and regards, Colin.

 

 

Hi Colin,

If you refer to  the brown book page 12.60.00 Engine Lubrication diagram, you will see how important the oil gallery is for the circulation of oil through out the engine. I am not referring to the rocker shaft but the same principle for cleaning out applies. I have never done the oil gallery cleaning in situ but it could be done one way, I think if the rad and grill were removed and then the plugs. Then use  a rifle bore rod and bronze brush to push right through. The reason that I mention the cleaning of the oil gallery was  that I once saw a leading TR car restorer do this and I was surprised by the length of sludge plug he got out it was over 2" long and he said that this was a bad case of lack of oil changes? and the engine was badly worn for the mileage done.

Bruce.

[c.hydes]

22 hours ago, astontr6 said:

Hi Colin,

If you refer to  the brown book page 12.60.00 Engine Lubrication diagram, you will see how important the oil gallery is for the circulation of oil through out the engine. I am not referring to the rocker shaft but the same principle for cleaning out applies. I have never done the oil gallery cleaning in situ but it could be done one way, I think if the rad and grill were removed and then the plugs. Then use  a rifle bore rod and bronze brush to push right through. The reason that I mention the cleaning of the oil gallery was  that I once saw a leading TR car restorer do this and I was surprised by the length of sludge plug he got out it was over 2" long and he said that this was a bad case of lack of oil changes? and the engine was badly worn for the mileage done.

Bruce.

OK thanks Bruce. For clarification the oil gallery you suggest cleaning out runs from front to back, with accessible nut/washer that can be removed with the engine in situ. If its not blocked I should be able to push all the way through with a suitable rod?

Also will this gallery be full of oil or will it all have drained back to sump after a suitable period after switch off?

Thanks, Colin.

[astontr6]

8 hours ago, c.hydes said:

OK thanks Bruce. For clarification the oil gallery you suggest cleaning out runs from front to back, with accessible nut/washer that can be removed with the engine in situ. If its not blocked I should be able to push all the way through with a suitable rod?

Also will this gallery be full of oil or will it all have drained back to sump after a suitable period after switch off?

Thanks, Colin.

There are 2 factors here :

1) how good is the seal on the oil pressure relief valve? Oil can drain back to the sump if seating is poor. On engine rebuild valve s/b lapped in. 

2) what type of oil filter have you got, if you are still using the original type oil will drain back to the sump. Hence this why the screw on type conversion with a non return valve are recommended. Eliminates main and big end wattle on start up.

Ideally you want the gallery to be full of oil so that the bearings are not starved on start up! My oil light goes out on cranking!

[ntc]

23 minutes ago, astontr6 said:

There are 2 factors here :

1) how good is the seal on the oil pressure relief valve? Oil can drain back to the sump if seating is poor. On engine rebuild valve s/b lapped in. 

2) what type of oil filter have you got, if you are still using the original type oil will drain back to the sump. Hence this why the screw on type conversion with a non return valve are recommended. Eliminates main and big end wattle on start up.

Ideally you want the gallery to be full of oil so that the bearings are not starved on start up! My oil light goes out on cranking!

Good luck with doing that, you will create far more problems than what you have now. The block needs to be totally dismantled  and flushed.

[c.hydes]

12 hours ago, ntc said:

Good luck with doing that, you will create far more problems than what you have now. The block needs to be totally dismantled  and flushed.

Humm,...I think this check/clean of the oil gallery is too big a step for me right now, and yes I do have the spin on oil filter conversion.

I am going to assume that as I am getting most rockers oiling, all the "bits not accessible" down below are working correctly. I will remove the rocker shaft, dismantle and inspect/clean, and then take it from there. Thanks again to all, and will come back later with some questions I am sure.

Cheers, Colin.

 

[c.hydes]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:50 AM, c.hydes said:

Humm,...I think this check/clean of the oil gallery is too big a step for me right now, and yes I do have the spin on oil filter conversion.

I am going to assume that as I am getting most rockers oiling, all the "bits not accessible" down below are working correctly. I will remove the rocker shaft, dismantle and inspect/clean, and then take it from there. Thanks again to all, and will come back later with some questions I am sure.

Cheers, Colin.

 

Hello all, I have taken off the rocker shaft, removed rockers, pedestals, springs etc and kept all in correct order (coathanger). Here are the results:

Apart from the blackish oil, there was sign of any crud or blockages inside rocker shaft and all 12 holes, inside the two holes in all 12 rockers. Everything was just oily.

Here is a photo of the a rocker position:

Is the scoring on the pedestal of concern?

The scoring on the rocker is the worst one and can be only just be felt fingernail  The 2 oil grooves and hole are all free.

Using a micrometer as best I can, , all 12 X diameters where rockers sit are circa 14.24 mm and concentric across. (Spec is 14.242 mm -14.254 mm). Is this OK? 

Here is a typical Rocker face:

All 12 rocker faces look the same. Again the wear area can just be felt with a fingernail.

Using a vernier caliper the inside diameter of all rockers seem to be greater that 14.30 mm. (Spec is 14.30 mm - 14.254 mm). Is this OK?

All long Springs are circa 68mm free length.

All in all,  to my limited knowledge wear doesn't seem too bad. Please can you guys offer your opinions?

Finally, photo of a pushrod:

Looks a bit tarnished,/rusty or is this normal?

P.S. How the bloody hell do you get this pushrod back down the hole and seat correctly?

Cheers, Colin.

 

 

[c.hydes]

4 minutes ago, c.hydes said:

Hello all, I have taken off the rocker shaft, removed rockers, pedestals, springs etc and kept all in correct order (coathanger). Here are the results:

Apart from the blackish oil, there was sign of any crud or blockages inside rocker shaft and all 12 holes, inside the two holes in all 12 rockers. Everything was just oily.

Here is a photo of the a rocker position:

Is the scoring on the pedestal of concern?

The scoring on the rocker is the worst one and can be only just be felt fingernail  The 2 oil grooves and hole are all free.

Using a micrometer as best I can, , all 12 X diameters where rockers sit are circa 14.24 mm and concentric across. (Spec is 14.242 mm -14.254 mm). Is this OK? 

Here is a typical Rocker face:

All 12 rocker faces look the same. Again the wear area can just be felt with a fingernail.

Using a vernier caliper the inside diameter of all rockers seem to be circa  greater that   4.30 mm. (Spec is 14.30 mm - 14.254 mm). Is this OK?

All long Springs are circa 68mm free length.

All in all,  to my limited knowledge wear doesn't seem too bad. Please can you guys offer your opinions?

Finally, photo of a pushrod:

Looks a bit tarnished,/rusty or is this normal?

P.S. How the bloody hell do you get this pushrod back down the hole and seat correctly?

Cheers, Colin.

 

 

Ignore previous, reply error corrected in red.

Colin.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

1 hour ago, c.hydes said:

Ignore previous, reply error corrected in red.

Colin.

Are you saying that a pushrod will not go fully back into its follower?

The push rod should just fit back down the hole in the head to where it came from, seated in the cam follower, unless you managed to lift the follower out of its bore in the block when you lifted the push rod out. 

This is not uncommon as the oil in the follower 'bucket' causes the push rod to stick to the follower.   In that case with patience you should be able, by fiddling with a stiff wire or two, to reseat the offending follower back in its bore. 

Beyond that it will be head off time and reseat the followers with your fingers.

Cheers

Peter W

[Waldi]

Hi Colin, did you open the rocker shaft, to  clean the inside? If not I recommend to do so.

The wear looks not too bad. 
0.06 mm total clearance between rocker shaft and rockers is a bit high but not “bad”. 
I polished the rocker tips on mine, and replaced a couple by good second hand ones. My shaft was much more worn, replaced that with a good used one as well, but have a new hardened one from Moss On the shelf.

The push rods can simply be dropped in, make sure they are clean and the ball is oiled. The wear marks on the side Are from the small hole in the head (contacting), they should not show any sharp scratches, grooves. Polish them and see what they look like, replace when in doubt.
Waldi

[c.hydes]

1 hour ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Are you saying that a pushrod will not go fully back into its follower?

The push rod should just fit back down the hole in the head to where it came from, seated in the cam follower, unless you managed to lift the follower out of its bore in the block when you lifted the push rod out. 

This is not uncommon as the oil in the follower 'bucket' causes the push rod to stick to the follower.   In that case with patience you should be able, by fiddling with a stiff wire or two, to reseat the offending follower back in its bore. 

Beyond that it will be head off time and reseat the followers with your fingers.

Cheers

Peter W

Thanks Peter and Waldi, yes worked it out, and pushrod now fully reseated back in the follower.

Colin.

[John McCormack]

I know I am repeating myself but it is crucial you have the oil hole in the rocker clear and oil flowing from it. Oil mist and spray in the rocker cover will not lubricate the rocker pin/pushrod cup.

If this area is not wet wet with oil the rocker pin will quickly destroy the pin and pushrod cup. Clean the whole lot of the rocker gear and each rocker out with compressed air at high pressure and it will come good.

[c.hydes]

15 hours ago, Waldi said:

Hi Colin, did you open the rocker shaft, to  clean the inside? If not I recommend to do so.

The wear looks not too bad. 
0.06 mm total clearance between rocker shaft and rockers is a bit high but not “bad”. 
I polished the rocker tips on mine, and replaced a couple by good second hand ones. My shaft was much more worn, replaced that with a good used one as well, but have a new hardened one from Moss On the shelf.

The push rods can simply be dropped in, make sure they are clean and the ball is oiled. The wear marks on the side Are from the small hole in the head (contacting), they should not show any sharp scratches, grooves. Polish them and see what they look like, replace when in doubt.
Waldi

Hello again Waldi, I have not taken off the pressed in end caps, as a bit worried on how to get them out, but more importantly how to get replacements back and seal properly.

I have blocked up all holes and filled with petrol left for a few hours and drained. I think its all pretty good inside with a good flow through all holes from the inlet.

If my measurements are correct 60 um is the diameter of human hair and even including measurement error/uncertainty, if its 200 um I can't believe this would be of concern. Unless we believe that the rockers have to be very tight on the shaft for everything to oil properly? 

When you say ......."polish the rocker tips", do you mean remove follow the profile with very very fine wet and dry until the small recess is completely removed?

I wasn't too worried about the shiny part in the middle of the pushrod, but more the tarnish/rust?

Colin.

 

 

[c.hydes]

6 hours ago, John McCormack said:

I know I am repeating myself but it is crucial you have the oil hole in the rocker clear and oil flowing from it. Oil mist and spray in the rocker cover will not lubricate the rocker pin/pushrod cup.

If this area is not wet wet with oil the rocker pin will quickly destroy the pin and pushrod cup. Clean the whole lot of the rocker gear and each rocker out with compressed air at high pressure and it will come good.

Hi John, I do understand and have taken on all of you comments on how crucial oiling is for all the rocker gear. I don`t have any compressed air, but everything has been removed, thoroughly cleaned to eliminate anything to do with shaft and rockers. I am fairly confident that oil will flow into the shaft and get to the shaft holes.

My worry is that the rocker gaps (on or slightly below specification of 83um), may be causing the problem. I don`t want to replace only to find no improvement.

What's your view of the tarnished/rusty pushrods?

Thanks, Colin. 

[Waldi]

Hi Colin, 

The Rocker arm tips are hardened (just the surface) so sanding won’t do much. I used a fine grinding disk, and carefully removed a minimum of material because they had light intents on only a small spot, and after assembly could run at slightly different positions and then are impossible to set correctly. But as said, remove just as little as needed.
Waldi

[John McCormack]

On 5/13/2020 at 7:11 PM, c.hydes said:

Hi John, I do understand and have taken on all of you comments on how crucial oiling is for all the rocker gear. I don`t have any compressed air, but everything has been removed, thoroughly cleaned to eliminate anything to do with shaft and rockers. I am fairly confident that oil will flow into the shaft and get to the shaft holes.

My worry is that the rocker gaps (on or slightly below specification of 83um), may be causing the problem. I don`t want to replace only to find no improvement.

What's your view of the tarnished/rusty pushrods?

Thanks, Colin. 

Hi Colin,

In normal operation the oil flows from the rocker hole down the rocker into the pushrod cup and overflows. With the general oil floating around in there the pushrod should be wet with oil. The blocked rocker oil gallery is probably why it has gone rusty.

The pushrod should be ok if it isn't bent and the ends aren't pitted or discoloured. They get pitted and discoloured because of heat build up due to poor lubrication. Check the pushrod cup and if it is ok reinstall the pushrod.

By rocker gaps I assume you mean the spaces between rockers along the rocker shaft, not the tappet gaps. I've never checked the gaps on the shaft, I just put the rockers and springs/spacers on the shaft and have never had a problem. Tappets I set to the 10 thou in the manual, a bit of a loose gap as all my TRs have run better with a very slightly bigger gap.