Ms Sturgeon

[Misfit]

On 4/24/2020 at 7:40 PM, iain said:

How she has the brass neck to think she knows the answers when she supported the Scottish CMO who broke social distancing guidelines I do not know. Personally I find her irritating, a first class manipulator who is clearly using the Cobra briefings to her own advantage. A touch of insider information that she then roles out in advance of any serious guidance from the Government. This is nothing more than petty points scoring at every opportunity. She has said nothing, but encouraged by the media who are intent on driving the next item on the agenda she responds to their needs......a class act in how to manipulate ones image. 
Iain

+ 1

Ms Sturgeon... I have no wish to score political points at times like these. Then goes on to political point scoring, and she does it well if you accept Ian Vincent initial post. A typically politician. It’s not necessarily what you are portraying but how you portray it.

Kennedy, Blair, are good examples. 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Misfit

[John Morrison]

On 4/24/2020 at 7:40 PM, iain said:

How she has the brass neck to think she knows the answers when she supported the Scottish CMO who broke social distancing guidelines I do not know. Personally I find her irritating, a first class manipulator who is clearly using the Cobra briefings to her own advantage. A touch of insider information that she then roles out in advance of any serious guidance from the Government. This is nothing more than petty points scoring at every opportunity. She has said nothing, but encouraged by the media who are intent on driving the next item on the agenda she responds to their needs......a class act in how to manipulate ones image. 
Iain

My thoughts exactly,

but I would add that she is dangerous.

I think this whole nationalist thing would make Scotland the poorer, and the UK also.

John.

[acaie]

On 4/24/2020 at 2:48 PM, Crawfie said:

How can you trust a woman who looks like one if the Krankies ?

With the PM's hair looking like Worzel Gummidge, I am still waiting for him to put on his sensible head.

[Motorsport Mickey]

10 hours ago, acaie said:

With the PM's hair looking like Worzel Gummidge, I am still waiting for him to put on his sensible head.

I think it's down from which direction you are looking...if it's from the left you'll often find it not to your taste.

Mick Richards

[Crawfie]

Duplicated post

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Crawfie

[acaie]

Well ahead of Boris and his pals on masks.

[iain]

Absolutely......for no good reason. It’s has been clearly demonstrated that the people who should wear masks If they are of benefit are those with the disease! .....They should be isolating anyway.

Another case of Ms S trying to be clever? 

[acaie]

Boris and his pals are now playing catchup on the masks.

[RogerH]

49 minutes ago, acaie said:

Boris and his pals are now playing catchup on the masks.

I suspect BJ and his team are buckling under a constant barrage of rubbish from reporters to wear masks.

Where is the clinical evidence that the mask you see Joe public wearing actually work - they don;t.

Have you noticed when paint spraying that even a reasonably well fitting mouth & nose mask still leaves paint stains down the sides of the nose etc.

It may provide some psychological support but not a lot more.

 

Roger

[TorontoTim]

Re: masks.

The information that I have seen suggests that masks are helpful in stopping spread primarily through the wearer not infecting others (rather than a wearer being safer themselves).  So they are about keeping the virus in not keeping it out.

Over here, masks are not mandatory but are recommended for places where we can't stay 2 metres plus apart.

Tim

[Misfit]

I am not convinced either way, others suggest that the nose itself filters the virus in part, this is improved when wearing a mask, it’s clear not 100% but significantly less when a mask is worn, and it will also protect other if you are effected and wearing one. Perhaps that in it self is sufficient for the government to ask the public to wear them. 

There’s  conflicting advice even from the medical profession, clearly a proper flitted mask would be the best option but obviously not everyone has access. 

The removal and fitting or touching the mask with your hand that has previously been in contact with a contaminated area can then contaminated the mask and subsequently yourself, so Sanitise prior to fitting removing or touching it. Personally  I have no problem wearing one it asked.

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Misfit

[barkerwilliams]

Do masks offer a panacea for return to work attitudes.?

There must be a change in public attitudes to risk for a reasonable return to work for many. UK surveys I have seen in the press report that many will not venture out. After weeks of governments around the world telling us if we venture out we and our loved ones will die 'orribly then many people will opt to remain isolated. There has to be some reassurance to change the public mood, perhaps a vaccine or a treatment but neither possible in the near future so perhaps the wearing of masks will offer the opportunity to try and sell the idea that it is safe to go out to work with a mask particularly as nothing has changed and there are more infected people out there now than when the infection started in the UK.

Personally I would like genuine statistics from the UK government on the demographics of the seriously ill with coronavirus and specifying which underlying conditions are dangerous for the infected. I know lots have died in care homes and I am sorry but I cannot relate my circumstances to them and I think a frank discussion by Boris J & others on their infection and treatment and the after affects would have more relevance to my circumstances so that we may all individually access the risk to venturing out.

Lockdown is not going to be easy to end.

Alan

[RobH]

21 minutes ago, TorontoTim said:

So they are about keeping the virus in not keeping it out.

But they don't do either. The virus is tiny - much much smaller than the pores in the simple mask so it can sail right through in both directions. 

It appears the only thing a mask really does is to stop you touching your mouth and nose.

[Bleednipple]

2 minutes ago, RobH said:

But they don't do either. The virus is tiny - much much smaller than the pores in the simple mask so it can sail right through in both directions. 

It appears the only thing a mask really does is to stop you touching your mouth and nose.

The virus is indeed very small but it doesn't float through the air on its own. Rather it is transferred via droplets of snot and saliva, which will be impeded substantially, although to various degrees, by pretty much any cloth barrier. There is tons of research output around on this, even though it's almost impossible to design a Level 1 RCT to prove it conclusively in the case of C19 transmission.

Nigel

[RobH]

That is only true while the mask is new and dry and single-use. People are going to wear these things repeatedly and for long periods during which they get impregnated with wet and potentially contaminated breath so the next sneeze/cough distributes it. I wonder whether the tests replicated that?   

I am certain they won't have tested the home-made ones that a lot of people are using, knocked up from scraps of material. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by RobH

[TorontoTim]

33 minutes ago, RobH said:

That is only true while the mask is new and dry and single-use. People are going to wear these things repeatedly and for long periods during which they get impregnated with wet and potentially contaminated breath so the next sneeze/cough distributes it. I wonder whether the tests replicated that? 

That certainly may be true, Rob, but the recommendation here is to wear tight-weave, cloth masks once and immediately wash afterwards.

I don't have the expertise to be able to defend the recommendation, just passing on what they have said in Canada about masks.

Tim

[foster461]

On 4/24/2020 at 9:31 AM, RogerH said:

Isn't it the Greeks that will inherit the Earth

 

Roger

Close Roger, close..

[Peter Cobbold]

My old full-face race helmet will be put to good use when I venture out, plus a mask. Belt and braces for me, no messing. Whatever Bojo says. Peter

[stillp]

I found this to be interesting: https://masks4all.co/faqs-for-mask-skeptics/

Pete

[Motorsport Mickey]

4 hours ago, acaie said:

Boris and his pals are now playing catchup on the masks.

The previous position and statement were provided by our best medical minds and acted upon by the government, if the scientific thought process changes or the medical advice provided changes I expect the government to take notice of it and change their minds. ...What do you do ?

Mick Richards

[Misfit]

Saving Your Health, One Mask at a Time

Peter Tippett MD PhD

CEO careMESH; Chairman DataMotion; ex Presidential Advisor; Norton Antivirus creator

We all hear the same things: wash your hands, don't touch your face, stay at home, stay 6 feet away from others. Viruses live on boxes and plastic and doorknobs and... EVERYWHERE.  

How does the average person decide what measures to follow unless they truly understand how these things work or have a clear set of “rules” they can abide by?

I am an Internal Medicine-certified, Emergency Room MD with a PhD in Biochemistry. I have also spent much of my professional life in the high-tech world helping people understand how risk, infection, and the growth of infection behaves. So I thought it might be helpful to folks in my network to explain how personal protection from a virus like SARS-CoV-2 (the formal name of the virus that causes COVID-19) actually works, how any given measure individually lowers risk, how various countermeasures work together, and most importantly, to give you some simple guidelines for day-to-day living in this new COVID world.  

Bottom Line on Masks & Gloves: 

Wear a mask when you are in “exposure” zones (mainly places with other people).  

Treat your home, car, and yard as safe places (no mask or gloves).  

Be on high alert on what you are doing with your hands when you are in “danger zones.” This is when you must not touch your face.  

Consider wearing gloves (even winter gloves or work gloves can be helpful) but only for short periods of time and only when in “touch exposure” danger zones.

Remove your gloves (and mask) when you return to your safe place.  

Wash your hands every single time you take off your gloves or mask or move from a danger zone back to a safe zone.  

When you are at home and after washing up, you can relax, scratch your nose, rub your eyes and floss your teeth…without worry.  

Protections Work Together

All protections or countermeasures are only partially effective. For example, wearing the seat belt in your car reduces the likelihood of dying by about 50% compared with not wearing it. You can think about that as horrible (“it will fail half the time!”), or as great (“it cuts the risk of dying in half!”). For everything we care about, in all aspects of life, we solve this “risk” problem by using countermeasures together to improve their collective effectiveness. Independently, air bags reduce the risk of dying by about 30-40%. When added together with seatbelts, they are synergistic and reduce risk together by 65-70%. We add licensing, speed limits, anti-lock brakes, police enforcement and other things to achieve very good risk reduction (well into the upper 90s). We need to be even more careful when we drive in more dangerous situations, such as in a snowstorm. Protecting yourself (and society) from COVID works exactly the same way—you just can't see the snow.   

Getting Infected is Not “Black and White”  

A tiny number of virus organisms placed in the back of a person’s throat one time is not likely to lead to the average person getting “sick” with COVID. If we placed a tiny number of live viruses in the throats of 1,000 people, less than half would probably get sick. If we placed 1,000 or 1,000,000 viral organisms, the average person probably would get sick. And if we placed a tiny number of organisms 10 or 100 times in a week, the average person would also likely get sick because of the multiple exposures. This is because even in your throat, your body has protective countermeasures such as mucus and cilia and your blood and other fluids likewise have generic immune and other protections. They are just not as strong as we need them to be. Even as people get and recover from COVID or get a future vaccine, 100% of the population won't be 100% protected, but collectively we will be safe.  

Your nose reduces the risk of viral particles getting to your throat. A mask reduces the risk of the viral particles getting to your nose, and social distancing reduces the risk of them getting to your mask. Together, these countermeasures work very well.  

If your nose reduces the risk by 80% (see Caveat 1), and a mask by another 80% and the six-foot distance by 80% more, then collectively, the failure rate would be (0.2*0.2*0.2 = .008) = 0.8%. In other words, the collection of countermeasures would be (1 minus the failure rate) = over 99% effective in reducing your chances of getting sick. In this example, any two together would be 96% effective and any one alone would be 80% effective.  

So based on this example calculation, if you are standing with your mouth closed and normally breathing close to a COVID carrier as they are speaking to you, you may have a 20% chance of getting sick from that exposure. Add a mask and that would go down to 4%, add distance and that goes to under 1%. Add repeated individual exposures from other people, and your risk gets worse. Add more countermeasures and your safety improves. The power of each individual countermeasure is much less important than their collective power in protecting you.   

[JohnG]

I was going to post about;

The "filters" in your nose being very good . . .a comparative measure approx equal to 4 mų, good for daily life, not much good against a virus.

The only really useful face masks for combatting CV19 being N95 / KN95 / FFP2 rated and these being single use and only for limited periods.

 

But Dereks post (above) sort of nulified the need

 

[Peter Cobbold]

2 hours ago, foster461 said:

Close Roger, close..

Macedonians ??

[stillp]

2 hours ago, wjgco said:

The only really useful face masks for combatting CV19 being N95 / KN95 / FFP2 rated and these being single use and only for limited periods.

Also, a point often missed, masks must be correctly fitted. Most people, including some clinicians I've met, don't bother.

Pete

[barkerwilliams]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nhs+procurement+manager+starts+own+company&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi0tKGSlZPpAhV3ZxUIHdXrDEYQ_AUoAXoECA4QAw&biw=1366&bih=624

Report of Senior NHS Procurement Manager starting own PPE company in April.

..If he knew where stock was available then bought through his company not NHS - Ouch!

 

Alan