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D3 for COVID call for data


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Hi Peter

we are singing from the same hymn sheet. Its the dross that is the problem. If the physiological optimal range is so well defined why is not used as the gold standard for dosing? I.e Titrate to the optimal range.

A meta analysis of the "quality" studies would therefore be useful? Or are the numbers too small to give any credibility too?

I would have thought that the money grabbing American physicians would have taken this as very big opportunity to make money? Have they not? Very simple money, a test, your deficient in D3 take some of these, re test. The difficult then becomes the subjectivity of the result unless you have some objective clinical outcomes in well controlled studies. 

A Doctor treating patients will need this data to safe guard against mal practice.

PS: Big (or little) Pharma does not decree what is the standard for drug testing.....you know that. There regulators been heavily involved for  decades.

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https://drhyman.com/blog/2020/03/17/protect-yourself-from-covid-19/

Vitamin D3: Adequate vitamin D status is critical for optimal immune function and this cannot be achieved without supplementation during the winter months. Studies have shown that people with vitamin D deficiency are 11 times more likely to get a cold or flu, while supplementing with vitamin D can reduce colds and flu by 42%. It is best to get your levels of 25-OH vitamin D checked for accurate dosing. Blood levels should be above 30 ng/ml, however, optimal levels are probably closer to 50ng/ml for most. Many need 5,000 IU or more of vitamin D3 a day in the winter. Start with 2,000 IU for adults, 1,000 IU for children. There is a theoretical risk for excess vitamin D in COVID-19 but taking 1,000 to 2,000 U is safe.

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On 3/31/2020 at 8:34 AM, iain said:

Hi Peter

we are singing from the same hymn sheet. Its the dross that is the problem. If the physiological optimal range is so well defined why is not used as the gold standard for dosing? I.e Titrate to the optimal range.

A meta analysis of the "quality" studies would therefore be useful? Or are the numbers too small to give any credibility too?

I would have thought that the money grabbing American physicians would have taken this as very big opportunity to make money? Have they not? Very simple money, a test, your deficient in D3 take some of these, re test. The difficult then becomes the subjectivity of the result unless you have some objective clinical outcomes in well controlled studies. 

A Doctor treating patients will need this data to safe guard against mal practice.

PS: Big (or little) Pharma does not decree what is the standard for drug testing.....you know that. There regulators been heavily involved for  decades.

Hi Iain,  The physiological 25(OH)D3  was defined in the past 15 years. But D3 has been prescribed for 80. Its like changing the course  of a rudderless supertanker, Lots of inertia to change. Simples.   The cell-molecular insights of the last decade are not getting through to all but a few clinicians either, D3 is implicated in MS, Parkinson's, Alzheimers. hypertension, cardiomyopathy, diabetes,psoriasis.etc etc. A population replete wiht physiologicla D3 is a threat to the pharma industry. And at  1 p per dose, there are slim profits.  However, one day the tanker will hit the rocks, and I shall not be surprised if this virus is the rock.  Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Peter I can not believe that you think that the vast numbers of independently thinking  doctors and researchers in these serious disease areas are that constrained in their thinking or research by pharma.....really?

I hope you are right in your prophecy that D3 is a solution however I don't share you scepticism over the industry's control of research.

Having worked for getting close to 10 years in the development of an NCE for Parkinsons, and having a very personal interest in this disease as you know, i don't remember once coming across D3 as being a serious consideration. Now that is either massive myopia shown by  researchers and charities working on Parkinsons or a reflection of a lack of belief in its benefits?

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4 hours ago, iain said:

Peter I can not believe that you think that the vast numbers of independently thinking  doctors and researchers in these serious disease areas are that constrained in their thinking or research by pharma.....really?

I hope you are right in your prophecy that D3 is a solution however I don't share you scepticism over the industry's control of research.

Having worked for getting close to 10 years in the development of an NCE for Parkinsons, and having a very personal interest in this disease as you know, i don't remember once coming across D3 as being a serious consideration. Now that is either massive myopia shown by  researchers and charities working on Parkinsons or a reflection of a lack of belief in its benefits?

Yes, emphatically so, without any doubt. So much so that two major pharmas  have pulled out of Alz research having burned through billions ot no efect.

D3 and PD.  Top  flight biology researchers know it is of central importance. For example:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277251978_Vitamin_D_A_custodian_of_cell_signalling_stability_in_health_and_disease

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4938033/pdf/rstb20150434.pdf

there are many more pointing to D3 deficincy as a  pricipal cause of PD

Look at  the pathways promoted by D3 and you will see it ameliortes severll widely-aiccepted causes if brain injury in PD: oxidative stress, calcium imblance, neuroinflammation, through  infuction of dozens of enzymes.

image.png.4f56d57f92c60df7d180c8c95267a3df.png

No single drug will ever be able to do that.

Here is Berridge, by far the brightest intellect I have ever worked with ( on one  review paper) disscecting the role of D3 in preservinf memoeires in the context of Alz. Yet the medical community ignore the research.

He died in Feb, a great loss to  biology and medicine,

I use moderatelyhigh dose D3 - and NO drugs (L-DOPA is toxic) - to slow iPD progression. I do not rely upon any clinician, Google Scholar is my guide.

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Something that may interest you. I started supplementing with D3 about 15 years ago. Well, about 15 years ago I started getting cramps in my legs - one muscle in particular was very prone to painful spontaneous contractions. Did these cramps start before or after the Vitamin D? I don't know, it's all too long ago. I saw my Quack and also went to the physioterrorist a few times over the years, all to no avail.

9 months ago I discovered magnesium and supplementing with magnesium glycinate has cured my cramps completely! (While the body uses calcium to make your muscles to contract, it's magnesium which causes muscles to relax. Insufficient magnesium means muscles may not completely relax and can spasm - painfully! - in order to protect themselves.) Reading in the various papers & articles about the importance of vitamin K2 and magnesium in metabolising the D3, and in particular how D3 "uses" magnesium, diverting it from its normal function (forgive me, the detail has already slipped off the end of my memory) it's tempting to say that my cramps started after vitamin D supplementation - in effect causing a magnesium deficiency in my muscles which triggered the cramps.

The motto? If you start getting cramps some time after starting with vitamin D, I suggest that you consider supplementing with magnesium as well.

Cheers, Richard

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Peter I am not really sure i understand where your argument is. Two companies pull the plug in Alzheimers  research after spending  millions.........OK so they got no where. It happens all the time in NCE development. Why the conspiracy theory?

 If D3 works then i am sure every respected PD specialists globally would be using it. Its cheap its relatively safe so whats not to like.

I don't see  any evidence of efficacy on PD Motor symptoms only on the Non Motor symptoms. Is  that correct? 

Iain

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12 minutes ago, iain said:

Peter I am not really sure i understand where your argument is. Two companies pull the plug in Alzheimers  research after spending  millions.........OK so they got no where. It happens all the time in NCE development. Why the conspiracy theory?

 If D3 works then i am sure every respected PD specialists globally would be using it. Its cheap its relatively safe so whats not to like.

I don't see  any evidence of efficacy on PD Motor symptoms only on the Non Motor symptoms. Is  that correct? 

Iain

No profits from D3 so no trials.The two amjor pharmas that got burned pulled outof ALz research a year or so afte Mike Berridges publications. It is difficult to overstate his influence in the science community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Berridge

Clinicians must obey rigid guidelines, they are not allowed experimenting on pts. The huge cost of a RCT means D3 remains neglected, Yet its pleiotropic actions against all the key pathogenci mechansims makes the science compellig. But we see almsoot evry month a biottech triyng to target just one of the pathways, neglecting to address the other nasty feedbacks. They will fail. D3 is apowerful defnsive hormone, one that clincianns continue to neglect, at the expesne of our heath. Sometme in the future clinicians' ignorance and neglect of the need for physiological D3 will be regarded as the   worst iatrogenic cause of chronci disease ever.

D3 is exepcted to slow progression of neurodegeneration whether motor or non-motor. My tremor diminusiehd over 18 moths to a tremble.

Yes whats not to like.  But we forget that the senior clincinas who call the shots, as undergraduates, spent maybe a week on  "vitamins" and hve no clue about the huge advances in D3 science of the past decade or two.   The strict heirarchy amongst  clinicians is at odds with science where evne the humblest young researcher wil be listened to if she has a cogent and innovative idea. Try that as a young medic and youd be out .

So it is all very sad. Great science is being done, the new techniques of post-genomic biology adding to our understanding daily. But the benefits to our health are not being realised. The translational model is deeply flawed.

But to me, forging my own path through PD with D3 and a few endogenous agents, I find the incompetecne of the clincal approach to PD perversely reassuring. My regime has not been done before, and it is solidly based upon science. It should work, I'll know in ten years.

Peter

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1 hour ago, Spit_2.5PI said:

Something that may interest you. I started supplementing with D3 about 15 years ago. Well, about 15 years ago I started getting cramps in my legs - one muscle in particular was very prone to painful spontaneous contractions. Did these cramps start before or after the Vitamin D? I don't know, it's all too long ago. I saw my Quack and also went to the physioterrorist a few times over the years, all to no avail.

9 months ago I discovered magnesium and supplementing with magnesium glycinate has cured my cramps completely! (While the body uses calcium to make your muscles to contract, it's magnesium which causes muscles to relax. Insufficient magnesium means muscles may not completely relax and can spasm - painfully! - in order to protect themselves.) Reading in the various papers & articles about the importance of vitamin K2 and magnesium in metabolising the D3, and in particular how D3 "uses" magnesium, diverting it from its normal function (forgive me, the detail has already slipped off the end of my memory) it's tempting to say that my cramps started after vitamin D supplementation - in effect causing a magnesium deficiency in my muscles which triggered the cramps.

The motto? If you start getting cramps some time after starting with vitamin D, I suggest that you consider supplementing with magnesium as well.

Cheers, Richard

Richard, The cause of cramping pain remains unknown. I resolved my leg cramping with  2000IU D3. reseveratrol and Nacetyl cysteine. I now take more D3 .It acts to tke up Ca and Mg from gut so as I have vert soft tapwater i supplement with Mg to keep it as availabe as dietary Ca.  Mg is very difficult to study as the blood level is preserved at the expense of muscl Mg, so muscle invovlemnt in deficidne might, in extrme fatigue, be expected. But not cramps: we cant  explain those from taking D3..  But have regimes that do work for us, and one day we might learn why !!

(I take K2 also, it can be lacking in the gut if we lack the correct bacteria )

Peter

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Peter enjoying this discussion and admit its resurrecting a few grey cells from slumber! 

Have you challenged the PD Society regarding the science? They independently fund raise for their own trials, this could be the route to answering this important question.

Iatrogenic is interventional? That  is a medics intervention causing the problem. ( this can happen but is most unlikely, most newly diagnosed PD patients are Idiopathic). Unless you can prove that D3 deficiency is the trigger?

Iain

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Hi Peter,
it is refreshing for me that this more than important topic is written here.
Vitamin D has become a little hobby of mine since 2018.
I've read dozens of studies on vitamin d. And I also talked to doctors and I can only say it scares how little they know. There are exceptions too. Like a friend of mine who is an orthopedist. In spring 2018 I had a test done. 18 ng / ml total deficiency !!!
I then took 20,000 IU in drops every day for 14 days.
Then test 88 ng / ml again. I then have an online calculator from Dr. Raimund von Helden used to calculate my dosage.
The body weight is also taken as a basis.
Since then I have been taking 10,000 units per day and thus maintaining a Vit D level of 85-95 ng / ml. I hired our whole family like that. The positive things would go beyond the scope here !!
Nevertheless, it is important that the other vitamins are well adjusted. And the further balanced diet about real fats !!!
Omega 3 from algae oil and linseed oil. Stay away from trans fats!
This is pure poison for our cells.
By the way, I also had my two Hovawart Dogs tested for Vit d. Result approx. 70 ng / ml !! It is mixed in by the feed manufacturer.

 

Ralf Schnitker

https://www.vitamindservice.de/

https://www.vitamind.net

https://vitamin-d.info

https://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/gesundheit/Vitamin-D-Mangel-erkennen-und-behandeln,vitamindmangel101.html

https://www.uke.de/kliniken-institute/institute/osteologie-und-biomechanik/aktuelles/iobm-aktuelles-vitamin-d.html

https://spitzen-praevention.com/wissen/sonne-und-vitamin-d/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19594303-bone-mineralization-defects-and-vitamin-d-deficiency-histomorphometric-analysis-of-iliac-crest-bone-biopsies-and-circulating-25-hydroxyvitamin-d-in-675-patients/

 

 

 

https://www.sunday.de/vitamin-d-mangel/

 

 

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2 hours ago, Schnippel said:

Hi Peter,
it is refreshing for me that this more than important topic is written here.
Vitamin D has become a little hobby of mine since 2018.
I've read dozens of studies on vitamin d. And I also talked to doctors and I can only say it scares how little they know. There are exceptions too. Like a friend of mine who is an orthopedist. In spring 2018 I had a test done. 18 ng / ml total deficiency !!!
I then took 20,000 IU in drops every day for 14 days.
Then test 88 ng / ml again. I then have an online calculator from Dr. Raimund von Helden used to calculate my dosage.
The body weight is also taken as a basis.
Since then I have been taking 10,000 units per day and thus maintaining a Vit D level of 85-95 ng / ml. I hired our whole family like that. The positive things would go beyond the scope here !!
Nevertheless, it is important that the other vitamins are well adjusted. And the further balanced diet about real fats !!!
Omega 3 from algae oil and linseed oil. Stay away from trans fats!
This is pure poison for our cells.
By the way, I also had my two Hovawart Dogs tested for Vit d. Result approx. 70 ng / ml !! It is mixed in by the feed manufacturer.

 

Ralf Schnitker

https://www.vitamindservice.de/

https://www.vitamind.net

https://vitamin-d.info

https://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/gesundheit/Vitamin-D-Mangel-erkennen-und-behandeln,vitamindmangel101.html

https://www.uke.de/kliniken-institute/institute/osteologie-und-biomechanik/aktuelles/iobm-aktuelles-vitamin-d.html

https://spitzen-praevention.com/wissen/sonne-und-vitamin-d/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19594303-bone-mineralization-defects-and-vitamin-d-deficiency-histomorphometric-analysis-of-iliac-crest-bone-biopsies-and-circulating-25-hydroxyvitamin-d-in-675-patients/

 

 

 

https://www.sunday.de/vitamin-d-mangel/

 

 

Hi Ralf,  Welcome ! you will find on here some hugely experienced TR enthusiasts who are also  clued up on D3

Wow, 18 ng/ml = 45 nmoll/l is regarded as almost adequate in UK !!

I shall peruse your links later. 

Along with  three D3-experienced UK clinicians weare trying to get out the message that D3 should be very useful against COVID-19. It would be great if you could use your web presence and journalist contacts to promote it:

https://scotsneedvitamind.com/covid-19/

And Dr Raimond too, please.

Helga  Rhein can provide a translation if required

Best regards

Peter

 

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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44 minutes ago, iain said:

Peter enjoying this discussion and admit its resurrecting a few grey cells from slumber! 

Have you challenged the PD Society regarding the science? They independently fund raise for their own trials, this could be the route to answering this important question.

Iatrogenic is interventional? That  is a medics intervention causing the problem. ( this can happen but is most unlikely, most newly diagnosed PD patients are Idiopathic). Unless you can prove that D3 deficiency is the trigger?

Iain

Iain,   Yes, tried the odd email to Res Directors, dead end. They are wedded to NHS  and pharmas it seems. Iatrogenic in that medics dictate the max dose without knowing it leads to below physiological hormone level.  They are advising too little: iatrogenic. Proving D3  deficiency is causal is supported by animal/cell/molec studies. Following 25(OH)D3 in human cohort over a decade or more before tremor arises has nto been done. Peter

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Peter,

Have you warned against Vitamin D and increased sperm mobility? With all that leisure time nowadays it could have unforeseen consequences at Christmas!  :rolleyes:

I have been taking Vitamin D3 4,000 for a few years now and the only two side effects  I can see

1) not caught a cold for years.

2) getting steadily grumpier year-on-year - must be the D3 couldn't possibly be anything else.

Alan

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1 hour ago, barkerwilliams said:

Peter,

Have you warned against Vitamin D and increased sperm mobility? With all that leisure time nowadays it could have unforeseen consequences at Christmas!  :rolleyes:

I have been taking Vitamin D3 4,000 for a few years now and the only two side effects  I can see

1) not caught a cold for years.

2) getting steadily grumpier year-on-year - must be the D3 couldn't possibly be anything else.

Alan

Alan,   At my age mobility is a concern , but not sperm-wise, unless D3 has unexpected effects on lust.

Yes,  no colds or persistent coughs fpr me too, but a runnier nose. sniff, sniff.

D3 is known to improve mood, and promotes serotonin production. Without it we would doubtless be even grumpier still.

Peter

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1 hour ago, iain said:

Indeed, there's the problem. They are advising doses that will fail to reach a physiological level of hormone.

But there is published information from D3-experienced clinicians that will acheive physiological:

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/04/01/letters-vitamin-d3-and-a-global-exit-strategy-from-covid-19/

Peter

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4 hours ago, iain said:

Hi Peter 

the key reference document , which I guess you disagree with the conclusions of https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/537616/SACN_Vitamin_D_and_Health_report.pdf

is  enlightening 

Iain

p 127 25nmol/l is used by DoH as sufficient. Out of date, it is now 50. 

p 128 men, women have mean 58 and 44 25(OH)D3 so half have sub-optimal level by the currrent DoH definition. By physiological criteria almost everyone is deficient in UK.

To a scientist that document is an abomination. They worked to a definition of adequacy 25 nmol/l that is ridiculously low. USA Inst Endoc define  adequacy as 75 nmol/l. While science - measurements- show the correct physiologicla level is 100 to 125 nmol/l

For those TRers on supplemnts note that no adverse efects are seen until extraordinarily high 25(OH)D3:

image.png.cac7de6cc3e9d89a7ce04e152fda992c.png

The margin of safety with D3 is very high indeed.

Peter

 

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