Peter Cobbold Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 This call for data on D3 from ICUs treating COVID pts needs disseminating amongst ICU staff. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jffdZOSuIA64L_Eur8qyCQ12T7NXrHSKPxtMe134C0Y/edit#heading=h.o5ort8spg572 I know several TRers have famly members or friends so engaged For the rest of us it is a succinct summary of why D3 is important Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 Been on 2000IU for a few weeks now, (formerly 1000) so fingers crossed. Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Lebro said: Been on 2000IU for a few weeks now, (formerly 1000) so fingers crossed. Bob. Bob, It's safe, and should (fingers crossed) protect against a really nasty infection source: https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)60190-0/pdf Other sources regard 4000 as safe, after applying a four-fold reduction from max safe dose. Max production by skin is around 10 to 20,000 IU per day were anyone daft enough to sunbathe that long. Theres more debate about D3 than comparing rolling road data !! Peter Edited March 29, 2020 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 Very good Peter, I hope this gets some serious consideration among all the panic and that we get some data out of it. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 I've been on 5000IU/day since about christmas. No significant illness since first week January. Legs haven't fallen off yet. No other signs of over dosing. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, foster461 said: Very good Peter, I hope this gets some serious consideration among all the panic and that we get some data out of it. Stan Stan, Data are the key. However the standard measure 25(OH)D3 is not the actual hormone thats does the business. Thats 1,25(OH)D3 and is made inside most cells. And its action to switch on D3-regulated genes is influened by epigenomic controls suah as methylation. Methylation switches off D3 actions and increases with age. In short, blood 25(OH)D3 data alone may not reveal the whole picture as to why the elderly are especially susceptible to COVID. Its complicated.....but so is life. The data will be very useful nontheless, as population-wide D3 supplementation might offer an exit strategy to COVID, much earliier than a vaccine, We iin UK are unlikely to see supplemntaton implemnted by the monolithic NHS. My guess is Italy will take the lead, and maybe China, USA where clinicinas are not all forced to dance to the same tune. Peter Edited March 29, 2020 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 1 minute ago, RogerH said: I've been on 5000IU/day since about christmas. No significant illness since first week January. Legs haven't fallen off yet. No other signs of over dosing. Roger I have been on 10,000 pd for months. no issues. But I do take vit K2MK4MK7 to drive the extra calcium uptake into teeth and bones away from soft-tissue. At 10,000 I sense I might be pushing safety, so belt and braces. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 Hi Peter, I increased from 1000 to 2000 IU/d (from 25 to 50 microgram/ day) a couple of weeks ago.A friend uses the same doses. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Waldi said: Hi Peter, I increased from 1000 to 2000 IU/d (from 25 to 50 microgram/ day) a couple of weeks ago.A friend uses the same doses. Waldi Waldi, I have an engineer friend in Netherland whose GP emailed him advice on D3 supplements, almsot ten years ago!! . Here's Dutch authors joining the discussion arging that Dutch Health Authirities advise too little: https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn201048 And that was ten years ago. Peter Edited March 29, 2020 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 Hi Peter, very interesting. I’ve been taking. However I note the BNF ( British National Formulary, which used to be printed twice yearly as the dispensers and prescribers go-to reference on drugs) is still cautious of prolonged high doses. Appreciate the BNF is not always on the money but it’s only right that people should know that high doses are not a panacea. Iain . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, iain said: Hi Peter, very interesting. I’ve been taking. However I note the BNF ( British National Formulary, which used to be printed twice yearly as the dispensers and prescribers go-to reference on drugs) is still cautious of prolonged high doses. Appreciate the BNF is not always on the money but it’s only right that people should know that high doses are not a panacea. Iain . Hi Iain, You have identifed the fundamental issue: D3 is not a drug and should never be assessed as if it were. But that is how the NHS is advised: minimal effective dose, notional safety margins etc. Plus D3 is active against a host of conditions, so which do they use to assess its efficacy? Bone, bone , bone..the historical use (and ignoring its use against TB in the 1930s). And ignroing its influence agaisnt a host of chronic diiseases.. Cautious advice is fine but in D3's case it looks dangerous. The advice ignores the phyisology of D3. The physiological level of 25(OH)D3 can be defined jsut as can blood pressure, plasma sodium, haematocrit, etc etc. It is not up to committees to decide that lower blood 25(OH) is adequate, but thay are doing. And that is plain wrong. The safest way to supplement is to measure our own 25(OH)D3 and aim for physiological 100 to 125 nmol/L. 2000IU for an adult will get there, whiel 4000 for an oldie should, but we are all different in our response. Physiological production of D3 from sunliight maxes out at around 20,000 IU pd. Most of the above physiological criteria are ignored by NICE, NHS. Physiology should trump expert committees. When it comes to D2 then that should be exposed to the fullest scrutiny as if it were a drug, D2 is not physiological. And may interfere adversely with D3 actions. Peter PS my 10,000 IU pd is experimental, aimed at suppressing neuroinflammation, and not aimed at COVID. Edited March 29, 2020 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 Pls keep the questions coming folks, I'm writing a piece for a general audience and your queries do help me see D3 from a differant perspective. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 This video of a talk by a clinician expert on D3 "oop north" describes several case histories, emphasising the prevalence of low D3. He uses old units of ng/ml. so the physiological level I bang on about is around 40 ng/ml. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SuzanneH Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) Thank you Peter, that was so interesting and very relevant to my own situation. eg I live in London, although I do have a large garden and swimming pool, I have darker than normal skin for an ENGLISH person, I am type two diabetic and (most importantly I have learnt today) I had a very severe bout of Polymialgia Rheumatica back in 2007/8. No wonder I love the outdoor life and being out and about in our TR cars, it all fits as far as I can see. I take the same dosage of D3 as Roger above and have done for about the last 5 years. Edited March 30, 2020 by SuzanneH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 1 hour ago, SuzanneH said: Thank you Peter, that was so interesting and very relevant to my own situation. eg I live in London, although I do have a large garden and swimming pool, I have darker than normal skin for an ENGLISH person, I am type two diabetic and (most importantly I have learnt today) I had a very severe bout of Polymialgia Rheumatica back in 2007/8. No wonder I love the outdoor life and being out and about in our TR cars, it all fits as far as I can see. I take the same dosage of D3 as Roger above and have done for about the last 5 years. Hi Suzanne, I thought you might like it. What the video does not cover is the evidence from animals/cells/moleular biology is that D3 very likely acts against other chronic diseases such as MS. Parkinsons and Alzhheimer's, and many ohers. VitaminDwiki gives a good idea of D3 enormous breadth of actions. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SuzanneH Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Thanks Peter, I forgot to mention that I am a natural lover and consumer of mushrooms, I couldn’t live without mushrooms in my diet. I did already know that they contain a high amount of D3, though but again I think my body is telling me something when I have a mushroom craving. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spit_2.5PI Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Peter, thanks for raising awareness about Vitamin D and telling us about the blood test. I've been supplementing with 2000IUs for the last 15 years after listening to a Radio 4 documentary. I'm 58, light-ish freckly skin, and my blood test came back this morning. 25-hydroxyvitamin D 3 : 63.0 nmol/L My wife has been supplementing D3, same amount, same time and she is 25(OH)D3=88nmol/L. We've already doubled our dose since we sent off the blood test, but I think I my need more than double! Cheers, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Spit_2.5PI said: Peter, thanks for raising awareness about Vitamin D and telling us about the blood test. I've been supplementing with 2000IUs for the last 15 years after listening to a Radio 4 documentary. I'm 58, light-ish freckly skin, and my blood test came back this morning. 25-hydroxyvitamin D 3 : 63.0 nmol/L My wife has been supplementing D3, same amount, same time and she is 25(OH)D3=88nmol/L. We've already doubled our dose since we sent off the blood test, but I think I my need more than double! Cheers, Richard Hi Richard, Wish I had heard that broadcast, I might well have avoided Parkinson;s. Excellent indeed that you made measuremnts, This time of year is also ideal time as it is when our 25(OH) is at its lowest. 63 and 88 are good levels cmpared with the population at large. If you never get winter 'colds' wehn all around are sickly thats a pretty ggod indication your level is keeping innate immunity in tune. 4000 IU pd is a acknowledged safe dose. I would re-test in four months and see where you get to. None of the numbers carry great precision , we all repsond differntly to D3 supplements and the sun differently. If you sunbathe a bit without slip/slap/slop that will boost D3 too. Peter Edited March 30, 2020 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 D3 for COVID. Hot off the press. USA authors........... https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202003.0235/v2 Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 I've been taking 2000iu for a couple of years now and haven't been particularly unwell since. I'll be running out soon though, and can't seem to find any high dose tablets in stock anywhere. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Unless you are averse to using Amazon, plenty on there and most seem to be in stock Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Peter Cobbold said: D3 for COVID. Hot off the press. USA authors........... https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202003.0235/v2 Peter Hi Peter , there is no substitute for good data..........even the authors of this early study agree that Large Randomised Controlled Trials are required, so whilst you can argue whether D3 is a drug or not , the data at the moment is all rather insubstantial, that will be why the BNF and others are rightly being cautious. The anecdotal evidence certainly supports the hypothesis that D3 has a significant but as yet unquantified effect. Some large RCT’s would clearly help. For the time being, I’ll continue with D3 supplements and keep a keen eye out for positive (hopefully) data. We should be careful of recommending large doses as inadvertent calcification is to be avoided. It would appear that D3 exhibits a biphasic effect, too low a dose giving problems and too high a dose also giving problems. Iain Edited March 30, 2020 by iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 30 minutes ago, iain said: Hi Peter , there is no substitute for good data..........even the authors of this early study agree that Large Randomised Controlled Trials are required, so whilst you can argue whether D3 is a drug or not , the data at the moment is all rather insubstantial, that will be why the BNF and others are rightly being cautious. The anecdotal evidence certainly supports the hypothesis that D3 has a significant but as yet unquantified effect. Some large RCT’s would clearly help. For the time being, I’ll continue with D3 supplements and keep a keen eye out for positive (hopefully) data. We should be careful of recommending large doses as inadvertent calcification is to be avoided. It would appear that D3 exhibits a biphasic effect, too low a dose giving problems and too high a dose also giving problems. Iain Iain, Of course D3 is not a drug and should never be aseesed as one ( D2 however is a drug). So RCTs thet fail to recognise that are not worth the paper th'tre printed on. If the physiological 25(OH)is not embraced then the trials are no more than guesses at the correct dose to achiev physiological. And the vast majority have guessed far too low.and did not measure 25(OH) either. So the charade continues...ever more numbers counted agianst an efffect, diluting inot extinction the very few trials that do show apronounced effect of raising 25(OH) to physiological. It is nothing short of an abuse of the scientific method, period. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Ok it’s not a drug as it is usually produced In sufficient quantity by the body. But if you are going to assess the clinical efficacy of D3 as an “intervention or supplement” this should be done in a well design and controlled study. Agreed you need to measure what is important, both in terms of physiological parameters and more importantly clinical outcomes. There is no point on having loads on board if can’t be used or is laid down in tissue in a manner that is harmful. The Vit D that I purchased was very careful to state “not to exceed the recommended dosage”.That would be great if the manufacturer has even bothered to write a Patient Information Leaflet for their product! They of course hadn’t and neither does their website have such information. The great world of unregulated supplements/ drugs. I may be being pedantic but a career in the pharmaceutical industry has made me very sceptical of all drugs and potions which are proffered as the answer to all our ailments. Give me some high quality peer reviewed data and I’ll make an informed decision. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 2 hours ago, iain said: Ok it’s not a drug as it is usually produced In sufficient quantity by the body. But if you are going to assess the clinical efficacy of D3 as an “intervention or supplement” this should be done in a well design and controlled study. Agreed you need to measure what is important, both in terms of physiological parameters and more importantly clinical outcomes. There is no point on having loads on board if can’t be used or is laid down in tissue in a manner that is harmful. The Vit D that I purchased was very careful to state “not to exceed the recommended dosage”.That would be great if the manufacturer has even bothered to write a Patient Information Leaflet for their product! They of course hadn’t and neither does their website have such information. The great world of unregulated supplements/ drugs. I may be being pedantic but a career in the pharmaceutical industry has made me very sceptical of all drugs and potions which are proffered as the answer to all our ailments. Give me some high quality peer reviewed data and I’ll make an informed decision. Iain, As a homone it has a physiologically defined optimum range in the blood. No-one administers thyroid hormoem without measuring the serum level repeatedly. No-one amdinsters a drip to resoter electorlytes without measurmentts. Likewise no-one shoudl try todefine a llevel of 25(OH) that nis below physiological. The minmum effective dose should never be applied ot try to control 25(OH)D3 at anything less than physiological. But that is what is being done, repeatedly. If you llok at meta-studies on D3 the vast majority of trials never measure 25(OH). Thats lunacy, but cheap as each test costs at least £30. But these crappy trials get lumped togehter with well designed trials that do measute 25(OH),and these often give stsrtlingly good effects. A scientist will follow those leads, but not cllmicinas wedded to the pharmas' protocol. Overall we are failing to benefit from D3 benefitng a huge range of chronic diseases. To a scientist meta-studies on D3 are one big joke, and very possibly dangerous for advising tioo little. D3 trials are mostly one big tottering tower of pseudo-scientific junk, and one day it will collapse. I'm working on it, by focusing on the few successes that extned our knowledge. And not the cr*p. If D3 did not impinge upon so many chronic conditions I coulld walk away. But D3 is far too importan for me to do that. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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