CORONAVIRUS

[john.r.davies]

This is voodoo, black magic, dressed up in medical clothing.

It's the "if you can hold you breath for 10 seconds you don't have Covid" story all over again.

Especially as this is said to be advice from an ICU nurse. Who is unnamed, so unattributable.     If you're that sick, you can't do all this, as an ICU nurse would be well aware.

Yes, pts with bad pneumonia may be turned onto their faces, to improve ventilation to posterior (back) parts of the lung.   And yes, they may be ventilated, temporarily, with maximal breaths to simulate coughing and get rid of sputum.     But ICU pts are either unconcious or incapable of helping themselves, for goodness sake!

If this really is a doctor from Queen's Hospital (Belfast? Nottingham? Romford?)  he is not doing himself or anyone else a favour by peddling this nonsense.

JOhn

 

[Peter Cobbold]

Dr David Grimes:  http://www.drdavidgrimes.com/2020/04/vitamin-d-and-doctors-in-uk-dying-from.html

[iain]

Causality or coincidence.......we know nothing of their other medical history, where they were exposed or how. Easy to draw an assumption, less easy to prove the causality, until full details are known.

 

[Graham]

If this is true and not false news I’m appalled https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52145140?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health&link_location=live-reporting-story

[barkerwilliams]

I hear Boris Johnson has now been admitted to hospital and I for one wish him and all others suffering with Coronavirus a very speedy recovery.

Alan

[RobH]

This is interesting:

http://inproportion2.talkigy.com

[Peter Cobbold]

3 hours ago, iain said:

Causality or coincidence.......we know nothing of their other medical history, where they were exposed or how. Easy to draw an assumption, less easy to prove the causality, until full details are known.

 

https://www.propublica.org/article/early-data-shows-african-americans-have-contracted-and-died-of-coronavirus-at-an-alarming-rate?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits

 

[foster461]

5 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

This is voodoo, black magic, dressed up in medical clothing.

It's the "if you can hold you breath for 10 seconds you don't have Covid" story all over again.

Especially as this is said to be advice from an ICU nurse. Who is unnamed, so unattributable.     If you're that sick, you can't do all this, as an ICU nurse would be well aware.

Yes, pts with bad pneumonia may be turned onto their faces, to improve ventilation to posterior (back) parts of the lung.   And yes, they may be ventilated, temporarily, with maximal breaths to simulate coughing and get rid of sputum.     But ICU pts are either unconcious or incapable of helping themselves, for goodness sake!

If this really is a doctor from Queen's Hospital (Belfast? Nottingham? Romford?)  he is not doing himself or anyone else a favour by peddling this nonsense.

JOhn

 

The reddit discussion is a good read. Makes some of our debates look pretty tame.

https://old.reddit.com/r/awesome/comments/fu9hfo/doctor_from_queens_hospital_gives_breathing/

 

[Peter Cobbold]

48 minutes ago, RobH said:

This is interesting:

http://inproportion2.talkigy.com

Comparing apples and oranges, it does not hold water.  Flu data are without lockdown in immunologically comptent population. COVID data are with lockdown in a naive population.   Two variables. The numbers cannot be legitimately compared.

Peter

 

[iain]

9 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said:

https://www.propublica.org/article/early-data-shows-african-americans-have-contracted-and-died-of-coronavirus-at-an-alarming-rate?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits

 

No question with that its however a big leap to make the assumption that all have died as a direct result of a VitD deficiency without supporting evidence.

[RobH]

9 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Comparing apples and oranges, it does not hold water.  Flu data are without lockdown in immunologically comptent population. COVID data are with lockdown in a naive population.   Two variables. The numbers cannot be legitimately compared.

Peter

 

It is the raw numbers that are of interest Peter, not comparisons and of course it holds water in pointing out how the media focus on 'XX more have died today' is misguided if the normal death figures are not also pointed out.

[Peter Cobbold]

4 hours ago, iain said:

No question with that its however a big leap to make the assumption that all have died as a direct result of a VitD deficiency without supporting evidence.

treated in isolation, yes. But scientists  weigh up the totality of the knowledge avaiable to them. And that point clearly to defensive role of D3 in innate immunity.

I have been posting supporting evidence,a tiny fraction of it, on here for months.

[Motorsport Mickey]

On 4/5/2020 at 5:42 PM, john.r.davies said:

This is voodoo, black magic, dressed up in medical clothing.

It's the "if you can hold you breath for 10 seconds you don't have Covid" story all over again.

Especially as this is said to be advice from an ICU nurse. Who is unnamed, so unattributable.     If you're that sick, you can't do all this, as an ICU nurse would be well aware.

Yes, pts with bad pneumonia may be turned onto their faces, to improve ventilation to posterior (back) parts of the lung.   And yes, they may be ventilated, temporarily, with maximal breaths to simulate coughing and get rid of sputum.     But ICU pts are either unconcious or incapable of helping themselves, for goodness sake!

If this really is a doctor from Queen's Hospital (Belfast? Nottingham? Romford?)  he is not doing himself or anyone else a favour by peddling this nonsense.

JOhn

 

John,

This doctor is identified

  "The technique is demonstrated by Dr Sarfaraz Munshi at Queen’s Hospital in Romford, as  recommended by his colleague Sue Elliot, director of nursing." maybe you could  contact him direct and question it as a fellow doctor ?  I'm sure we would all be thankful for any tips.

Mick Richards 

[john.r.davies]

I stand by my last sentence.

John

[Motorsport Mickey]

Well half of your sentence at least seems incorrect John, the method is now attributable to the aforesaid Dr and beyond him his Director of Nursing Sue Elliott. Perhaps if you contacted the aforementioned Dr and then advised us of the result we could confirm whether your other comments about it would stand up to scrutiny and if so we could ignore the video instruction as being fabricated nonsense as you claim.

You see we have open minds and wish to learn if the methods preached are genuine and that we are not being manipulated...either way.

Mick Richards  

[Peter Cobbold]

BMJ rapid response by Dr Gerry Schwalfenberg, family physician, Univ Alberta. He is the orginator of the "D3 hammer"

You cannot get better advice than this.

https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-44

Peter

[SuzanneH]

At last nights Coronavirus update did you notice Dominic Raab was asked about the difference between the German death rate and the UK Death rate?. His very quick response was that Demoghraphics came into the explanation of the difference and he didn’t elaborate.

It is my “ guess”  with some understanding that the Demographic not elaborated on was skin colour.

Before you shoot me down in flames please think about this seriously.

Edited April 8, 2020 by SuzanneH

[RobH]

Different countries use different recording methods Sue , so making comparisons may not be straightforward.  The UK has made CV19 a notifiable disease which apparently means that if a patient has it, whether or not it was the actual cause of death, it is recorded on the death certificate. It is possible that many of the UK victims died with the disease rather than of it. Perhaps the Germans do it differently.

[SuzanneH]

7 minutes ago, RobH said:

Different countries use different recording methods Sue , so making comparisons may not be straightforward.  The UK has made CV19 a notifiable disease which apparently means that if a patient has it, whether or not it was the actual cause of death, it is recorded on the death certificate. It is possible that many of the UK victims died with the disease rather than of it. Perhaps the Germans do it differently.

Yes, but that can’t be explained by the word Demographics.

Edited April 8, 2020 by SuzanneH

[Bleednipple]

If you are speculating whether black and minority ethnic people are disproportionately badly affected by coronavirus, well there seems to be some evidence that they are, from the ICNARC data. It would actually be surprising if they weren't: because BME communities are likely to be disproportionately vulnerable to a disease like CV19, due to higher than average rates of underlying morbidities such as diabetes, and more likely to live in overcrowded accommodation just to take two factors.

In pretty much any disease outbreak it is the sections of the community who are most disadvantaged to start with who suffer most. BME people in the UK are much more likely than others to experience poverty and its negative consequences for health.

Nigel

Edited April 8, 2020 by Bleednipple

[john.r.davies]

14 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Well half of your sentence at least seems incorrect John, the method is now attributable to the aforesaid Dr and beyond him his Director of Nursing Sue Elliott. Perhaps if you contacted the aforementioned Dr and then advised us of the result we could confirm whether your other comments about it would stand up to scrutiny and if so we could ignore the video instruction as being fabricated nonsense as you claim.

You see we have open minds and wish to learn if the methods preached are genuine and that we are not being manipulated...either way.

Mick Richards  

Mick,

I would refer you to "Russell's Teapot".    Bertrand Russell pointed out that the duty to substantiate a theory lies with the person suggesting it.   Hence if he were to claim that there was a teapot in orbit around the Sun, there is no need for other astronomers to seek to disprove it.       The breathing exercises suggested in the video have no basis in medicine, for fit people, and the 'doctor' made no attempt beyond anecdote to do so.

As I said, deep breaths and positioning are used on ventilated ICU patients, but this video advice is directed at the fit.       There are people who have chronic conditions that affect their lungs, emphysema, chnonic bronchitis, cystic fibrosis, where such exercises are used.   This is because in those conditions the normal mechanism for clearing the lungs is faulty.     Normally, the lungs secrete a muscous sticky liquid, sputum, that is a second line defence against infection.     Airbourne dust, with bacteria and viruses, is caught in the mucus, and ciliary hairs on the cells that line the bronchi waft the mucus ever upwarsd, until it emerges at the larynx (voice box) and is swallowed.    Stomach acid kills any infection.      In the above conditions, the cilia and bronchi are damaged, or the mucus is much stickier than normal, so cannot be removed as easily.      Breathing exercises are essential to prevent recurrent infection for such unfortunate people., but in the fit the normal mechnisms work well.     Except when faced with a previously unknown virus.   

Now, unlike the 'doctor' in the video, I have evidence that surgical patients are helped by breathing exercises and other procedures, and I'm perfectly willing to share it with you.   There is in fact a  large body of such evidence, but I offer just this review ( Restrepo & Braverman, 2015) that shows that activity by post-op. patients reduced infection by 38%, Incentive spirometry (deep breathing against a measure) 25% and that using a multidisplinary approad (Incentive spirometry, Coughing and deep breathing, Oral care – brushing teeth and using mouthwash twice daily, Understanding – patient and family education, Getting out of bed frequently – at least three-times daily and Head-of-bed elevation) allowed a 40% increase on post-op. mobilisation.

So, following Russell, I have no need to go to the 'doctor' in the video and ask for his evidence - it is his job to provide that.     But I am very willing to show you where there is value of breathing exercises in medicine, with the evidence.

John

Reference

 Restrepo RD, Braverman J, 2015, Expert Review of Respiratory Medicine, Volume 9, Current challenges in the recognition, prevention and treatment of perioperative pulmonary atelectasis.

(Atelectasis  is the collapse of the small cavities in the lung called alveoli, that precipitates pneumonia)

See: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/17476348.2015.996134

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by john.r.davies

[Ian Vincent]

2 hours ago, SuzanneH said:

At last nights Coronavirus update did you notice Dominic Raab was asked about the difference between the German death rate and the UK Death rate?. His very quick response was that Demoghraphics came into the explanation of the difference and he didn’t elaborate.

It is my “ guess”  with some understanding that the Demographic not elaborated on was skin colour.

Before you shoot me down in flames please think about this seriously.

Sue,

I have been asking about the apparently low death rate in Germany since the issue first surfaced about 4 weeks ago.  I have a friend who is a doctor (consultant surgeon) along with a Daughter in Law who is also a surgeon and my wife has a cousin who is german.

The 'demographic' issue is related to the number of young (fit) people (mainly skiers) who have tested positive.  Also they admit that they have had a lot of false positives with their testing that has artifically lowered their morbidity rate, whilst their high testing rate means that disregarding the false positives, they are detecting a much higher number of cases than in UK or France for example.  As far as I or the people I have asked know, there is no material difference between the treatments being used in Germany and anywhere else in Europe.

Rgds Ian

[SuzanneH]

2 hours ago, Bleednipple said:

If you are speculating whether black and minority ethnic people are disproportionately badly affected by coronavirus, well there seems to be some evidence that they are, from the ICNARC data. It would actually be surprising if they weren't: because BME communities are likely to be disproportionately vulnerable to a disease like CV19, due to higher than average rates of underlying morbidities such as diabetes, and more likely to live in overcrowded accommodation just to take two factors.

In pretty much any disease outbreak it is the sections of the community who are most disadvantaged to start with who suffer most. BME people in the UK are much more likely than others to experience poverty and its negative consequences for health.

Nigel

Yes, I do agree with what you are saying here but my point was mainly that people with darker skin are usually Vitamin D3 deficient and are at a higher risk of being susceptible to Coronavirus. If you have seen the reports of many of the DRs, Consultants and nurses who have succumbed to Coronavirus it is noticeable that they are dark skinned people. You may say that the majority of our Medics are dark skinned but I am not sure about that.

[SuzanneH]

43 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

Sue,

I have been asking about the apparently low death rate in Germany since the issue first surfaced about 4 weeks ago.  I have a friend who is a doctor (consultant surgeon) along with a Daughter in Law who is also a surgeon and my wife has a cousin who is german.

The 'demographic' issue is related to the number of young (fit) people (mainly skiers) who have tested positive.  Also they admit that they have had a lot of false positives with their testing that has artifically lowered their morbidity rate, whilst their high testing rate means that disregarding the false positives, they are detecting a much higher number of cases than in UK or France for example.  As far as I or the people I have asked know, there is no material difference between the treatments being used in Germany and anywhere else in Europe.

Rgds Ian

I think you are mixing your statistics here. You can’t compare your Coronavirus positive testing statistics by Demographics with your death statistics. They may be identifying a higher positive rate but their death rate is lower........! It can’t just be the younger Germans who are testing positive and a few of them dying.

[john.r.davies]

Further to my above, if you want my advice - not based on science evidence but good practice in maintaining a sterile field - wash your hands!

I went to the supermarket this morning.    I wore a short sleeved shirt, and when I was done, and my shopping was in the car's boot, I went back into the store and used their lavatories, to wash my hands.  In fact I did an elbow-high surgical scrub, without the scrubbing brush.     I also washed the pound coin I had put into the shopping trolley.   Thus I was able to return to my car, and drive home, secure in knowing  that I had not contaminated the steering wheel or controls, or the change in my pocket.

But the boot was potentially contaminated, so after bringing my shopping in, I washed my hands, and cleaned the door handles I had touched to get in.     I won't use the car again for several days, so the risk from the contaminated boot is minimal.

And my shopping was contaminated, so I washed that before I put it away.  It all got a wipe down with hot water and detergent.    Then I washed my hands.     And then, I went and changed my clothes which went into the washing machine, and wiped down my wallet and credit cards.    And washed my hands.

I was scrupulous all this time not to touch my face or hair - surprisingly difficult!

 

OK, you'll say that I'm being paranoid, wasting a lot of time, but hey!  We have lots of time available right now!    Wash your hands!   And use soap/detergent and water on the essential things you buy.