Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Matt,

Odd that the medical profession seem quite happy to accept with no trials that obesity, diabetes, et al are all factors in the outcomes of covid, but surely no testing of such hypothesis has been undertaken.

Observational/associative reports seem quite acceptable to the industry when it suits the message.

 

Alan

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

HELP THE NHS ~ I've let my adjoining empty house (fully furnished) to four NHS nurses free of charge during this National Emergency. We have a very large General Hospital at the top of the r

Very very Harsh Geko. I see a man, in an unenviable position, doing his utmost to balance the impossible tasks of trying to control the spread of a new novel virus - for which there is no treatme

By the book...

Posted Images

I foresee an issue with VitD3 campaign. “IF”it was accepted for its mode of action as a hormone, then surely it will fall under proper regulatory scrutiny for safety, efficacy,toxicology, tolerability, manufacturing practice. In effect it will be Hormone replacement therapy. It would have to shift from GSL ( General Sales List) to POM. (Prescription only Medicine).

This would bring it into line with every hormone treatment on the market. It would require patients to be tested to show deficiency and a prescription to obtain in an appropriate dose. 
 

Iain

Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, barkerwilliams said:

Matt,

Odd that the medical profession seem quite happy to accept with no trials that obesity, diabetes, et al are all factors in the outcomes of covid, but surely no testing of such hypothesis has been undertaken.

Observational/associative reports seem quite acceptable to the industry when it suits the message.

 

Alan

 

Good deduction Alan +1

Mick Richards

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, iain said:

I foresee an issue with VitD3 campaign. “IF”it was accepted for its mode of action as a hormone, then surely it will fall under proper regulatory scrutiny for safety, efficacy,toxicology, tolerability, manufacturing practice. In effect it will be Hormone replacement therapy. It would have to shift from GSL ( General Sales List) to POM. (Prescription only Medicine).

This would bring it into line with every hormone treatment on the market. It would require patients to be tested to show deficiency and a prescription to obtain in an appropriate dose. 
 

Iain

Iain

Depends upon who defines "deficincy " . When it is defined by bone merchants you will get a mcuh lower value ( <25 nmol/L )  than if a physiologixt was consuleted (100-150) or a biochemist who knows that 100 nmol/L 25(OH)D  is jsut enough ot maximise its ocnversion to the hormone 1,25(OH)D. Bone has evolved to work OK at very low D3 becasue rickety women died in chidlbirth  and there  was strong evolutionary pressure , that ahve not ocurred in the many other functions of D£

There is also a danger in assuming serum 25(OH)D cna be sued ot define sufficiency. Even seasonal swings in 25(OH)D may render us vulnerable at winter onset. This paper explians why, in the contaxt of two types of cnacer:  https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/29/9/3675.full#F3

The only good thing that will come out of this pandemic is that regulatory bodies advising on D3 will be forced to eat dirt. D3 is neither a drug nor therapy, it comes form sunlight on skin and in humankinds egress form sunny Africa we do not get enough. Naitve lving present day Maasai and Hazda have around  125 nmol/L 25(OH)D , year round, and that defines adequacy for me, period.

I would send the NICE D3 panel to Kenya

 

 

and leave them there

Peter

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, iain said:

Several of those strong assocaitions are known to also be associated with D3 deficicncy eg T2DM, obesity, hypertension.

Cart before CDC's horse?  D3deficiency fails  to be recognised as worth a mention. No suprises there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, iain said:

Dose ranging studies in multiple disease conditions that you believe VitD3 has an impact upon would ultimately resolve that issue.

 But at 2p per day the profit in D3 does nor run to big trials. And sunlight is free.

To do a trail over lomger than 6 winter months is hugely diffcicult unless  the volunteers are kept in the dark.

Many chronic diseases arguably result from winter deficincy over decades eg iParkinson's.

Devotion to  regulation is laudable for man-made drugs but physiology must rule over D3.

Peter

Link to post
Share on other sites

From the Torygraf 17/01/21:

"Almost a third of recovered Covid patients will end up back in hospital within five months and one in eight will die, alarming new figures have shown.

Research by Leicester University and the Office for National Statistics (ONS) found there is a devastating long-term toll on survivors of severe coronavirus, with many people developing heart problems, diabetes and chronic liver and kidney conditions. 

Out of 47,780 people who were discharged from hospital in the first wave, 29.4 per cent were readmitted to hospital within 140 days, and 12.3 per cent of the total died.

The current cut-off point for recording Covid deaths is 28 days after a positive test, so it may mean thousands more people should be included in the coronavirus death statistics.

Researchers have called for urgent monitoring of people who have been discharged from hospital.

Study author Kamlesh Khunti, professor of primary care diabetes and vascular medicine at Leicester University, said: “This is the largest study of people discharged from hospital after being admitted with Covid.

“People seem to be going home, getting long-term effects, coming back in and dying. We see nearly 30 per cent have been readmitted, and that’s a lot of people. The numbers are so large.

“The message here is we really need to prepare for long Covid. It’s a mammoth task to follow up with these patients and the NHS is really pushed at the moment, but some sort of monitoring needs to be arranged.”

The study found that Covid survivors were nearly three and a half times more likely to be readmitted to hospital, and die, in the 140 days timeframe than other hospital outpatients. 

Prof Khunti said the team had been surprised to find that many people were going back in with a new diagnosis, and many had developed heart, kidney and liver problems, as well as diabetes.

He said it was important to make sure people were placed on protective therapies, such as statins and aspirin. 

“We don’t know if it’s because Covid destroyed the beta cells which make insulin and you get Type 1 diabetes, or whether it causes insulin resistance, and you develop Type 2, but we are seeing these surprising new diagnoses of diabetes,” he added.

“We’ve seen studies where survivors have had MRS scans and they’ve cardiac problems and liver problems.

“These people urgently require follow up and the need to be on things like aspirin and statins.” 

The new study was published on a preprint server.......

Link to post
Share on other sites

Based on physiology, a norm can be agreed? On that basis,  trail to obtain the norm in the disease conditions you state and measure effect against the accepted measures for improvement. Ie in Parkinson’s use PDQ 36 or the short form, assuming they are still,the Gold standard. For Hypertension look at bases lines before Tx and then report once the D3 therapeutic goal has been achieved, maintain that level and continue to measure BP. Surrogate end point s would of course be reduction in anti hypertensive drugs required to achieve to the target BP. Etc. 
 

Iain

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow Peter, that is some pretty industrial grade consipracy theorising going on, and maybe I do know a little more than you think.

Do you really think that the "profession" would really subject so many people to extreme risk of mortality purely in the quest of better profit margins?  A profession with ethics at its core (admittedly one where it gets it wrong at times) and a NHS currently drowning and run by managers trying to minimise cost to the taxpayers?

One where the staff each day are putting themselves in harms way treating the profoundly unwell, who are dying in front of them despite their best efforts?  If this could all be reversed by the simple administration of Vit D, it absolutely would be.  To suggest otherwise is an insult to the people who currently are working horrendous hours and in incredibly stressful situations to save the lives of those people currently severely unwell with CV19.

The thing I don't get about all these CV19 conspiracy questions: "virus released by China", "the real treatment is easy", "it's just the flu" etc. What would be the point?  Why on earth would some international shadowy conspiracy or governments allow the deaths of 100s of thousands and the extreme economic hardships when the benefits just aren't good enough?

I acknowledge completely that cheap agents can struggle at times to find suitable funding for proper studies to be conducted.  It may be that VitD is an agent that can help.  But to suggest that it has widespread evidence that is being ignored or suppressed is dangerous until those studies are done in a sufficiently robust way to support their use.  When those studies exist, the agents are used.  Pure and simple.

I know this will not even begin to change your mind due to the nature of these things.  Unfortunately it will likely result in a storm of replies lambasting my uninformed state.  And, I will go away and have a look at some of your papers to see if there is something I have missed in Vit D in human physiology, because- despite your protests, these studies are going on in healthcare.  But for others who may be reading this: Wash your hands, use a mask, social isolation and get vaccinated.

2 hours ago, barkerwilliams said:

Odd that the medical profession seem quite happy to accept with no trials that obesity, diabetes, et al are all factors in the outcomes of covid, but surely no testing of such hypothesis has been undertaken.

Alan: Agreed, except that these are being used as indicators as to those at high risk.  They're not advocating treating obesity/DM/HT etc during the acute illness as COVID management.  One could argue that Vit D deficiency could be used as a marker in a similar way on the basis of the observational studies conducted.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Matt,

I do not know about conspiracy theories but it does puzzle me that when the whole world is sinking beneath the waves of the dead and dying

that someone does not grasp the straw. Possibly a straw that is useless.

But it is a straw that has anecdotal possibility, is cheap and generally harmless up to quite large doses 

Take the UK it could easily be used in various areas/counties as a precursor to a more widespread trial. 

 

Stay safe

 

Roger

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Possibly a straw that is useless.

But it is a straw that has anecdotal possibility, is cheap and generally harmless up to quite large doses 

I have zero issue with this.  It's cheap and has minimal risk and there are several areas of health in which it shows promise.  I'd even consider it if CV19 was uncontrolled in my area but not at the exclusion of other, well proven (and cheaper) preventative measures such as handwashing/social distancing.

BUT: the inference that "big pharma" and the medical community is willfully ignoring an effective therapy in order to line their pockets in a worldwide crisis such as this is an absolute conspiracy theory, not to mention insulting to those who work in the hospitals and healthcare.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, RogerH said:

the whole world is sinking beneath the waves of the dead and dying

That is the impression one gets listening to the doom-and-gloom mongers in the government and media. The reality is somewhat different as the official figures from the ONS show ( these are the latest released figures up to Jan 1st):

deaths.jpg.75689e7f8a35ad8c9bc778aa1b04f9e7.jpg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, matttnz said:

I have zero issue with this.  It's cheap and has minimal risk and there are several areas of health in which it shows promise.  I'd even consider it if CV19 was uncontrolled in my area but not at the exclusion of other, well proven (and cheaper) preventative measures such as handwashing/social distancing.

BUT: the inference that "big pharma" and the medical community is willfully ignoring an effective therapy in order to line their pockets in a worldwide crisis such as this is an absolute conspiracy theory, not to mention insulting to those who work in the hospitals and healthcare.

Nobody mentioned using D3 as a substitute to Hands, face, space......! It is in addition to not instead of.

Here we go on about “ Conspiracy Theories again, what is it with this forum?  If someone doesn’t agree with the few they then accuse them  of being conspiracy theorists. I find this VERY insulting.........!

Edited by SuzanneH
Link to post
Share on other sites

The situation in The London Borough of Hillingdon today for those who are interestead.

228BCDEB-89FA-4514-80A0-2F8E541CE155.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been taking Vitamin D supplements for well over ten years, perhaps over fifteen years, usually 4000 in the summer and 5000 in the winter. Well curiosity finally got the better of me and I sent off my sample for testing and received the results today.

I was surprised by the result being so close to the bottom end of "good" and I have decided to up my winters daily dose to 8000 for a month or so then have a retest. My metabolism ratio is 10.5 dead centre in the good so I don't have a conversion issue or underlying problem.

Although I know my result is good I would have liked/ expected it to be higher in the good range. For me with my lifestyle, diet or whatever I now really appreciate how dire the UK's recommendation of 400 units/day  really is and I can only guess how poor my results would have been at the recommended dose level. 

Although I have not had a cold etc for years so I suspected my levels were ok I do not think I understood that I required such levels of supplementation just to make me "low-good".

Aside from clean drinking water I do not believe that there is any other product that can do us all so much good at such an insignificantly low cost.

I hope this might prompt others to take the test, the reassurance it gave me that I am on-track is wonderful.

 

Alan

image.png.bbca2148365a571656db80d5eb94f419.png 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Alan - that's really interesting - I have been taking 4000mu a day for the last year since Peter first started his post - I also take Cod liver oil capsules but not sure if they naturally have Vitamin D in them.

How do you go about getting a test? Presumably you had it done privately and if so, what did it cost? Can you post a link please

Cheers Rich

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rich,

£39 - Box turns up next day, prick finger with lancet supplied, squeeze three blood drops onto card and send off in the prepaid packet supplied. Go online and register the test to you and your e-mail address. They email you when packet arrives and when your test is complete. Due to postal problems mine took a week to get there and a week to process, but as they also do Covid tests it is not surprising its a little slow, but then I had waited years to get a test so what is a few days extra?

https://www.cerascreen.co.uk/products/vitamin-d-test

or you can get from Amazon.

Alan

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, rcreweread said:

Alan - that's really interesting - I have been taking 4000mu a day for the last year since Peter first started his post - I also take Cod liver oil capsules but not sure if they naturally have Vitamin D in them.

How do you go about getting a test? Presumably you had it done privately and if so, what did it cost? Can you post a link please

Cheers Rich

Hi Rich,

Cod liver oil contains about (according to Wiki)  3 tea spoons contains about 1300IU    but it does have other good things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_liver_oil  (refer to Theraputic uses)   so you would need about 6 or 9 teaspoonful to get to apprx 4000IU

Roger

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, barkerwilliams said:

Rich,

£39 - Box turns up next day, prick finger with lancet supplied, squeeze three blood drops onto card and send off in the prepaid packet supplied. Go online and register the test to you and your e-mail address. They email you when packet arrives and when your test is complete. Due to postal problems mine took a week to get there and a week to process, but as they also do Covid tests it is not surprising its a little slow, but then I had waited years to get a test so what is a few days extra?

https://www.cerascreen.co.uk/products/vitamin-d-test

or you can get from Amazon.

Alan

Or here: https://www.vitamindtest.org.uk/

Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, stillp said:

This is from your quote  

Direct to the public Vitamin D testing from our NHS laboratory

•Very small finger prick sample required. Five thousand of our Vitamin D test packs are being used in a national study looking at the role of Vitamin D in Covid-19.

 

Interesting

 

Roger

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Please familiarise yourself with our Terms and Conditions. By using this site, you agree to the following: Terms of Use.