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7 minutes ago, PaulAnderson said:

Are you sure about that Mick, I’ve seen figures of between 50 and 80 million stated.

Paul

Depends on which historic article you choose the number from.... 17m is the low end estimate, the top estimate usually around 100m  -  bottom line, it was a big number whichever you go for.

....... Andy 

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That looks most interesting, foster, and impressive!

But we should remember that association is not causation!      And I am concerned that this enormous study, over 200,000 people were tested, was funded by a commerial company, Quest Diagnostics and carried out by their employees.   Excuse my cynicism, but that might be magnanimous public service by the company, or self interest.  The claim to have confirmed the assocation across ethnic differences again was by association, with the patients' 'zip-codes'.   

Either way, and as always, needs confirmation.     But I'm gladder that I take a 'normal' dose of VitD supplement, with no need (IMHO) to take megadoses.

JOhn

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9 hours ago, foster461 said:

Another retrospective study but quite comprehensive.

 

SARS-CoV-2 positivity rates associated with circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0239252#pone-0239252-g001

 

One of the authors Holick is a world-respected scientist-clinician,who discovered the active form of the hormones ( 1,25(OH)D ) in 1969- we can trust the result.

It is intriguing that despite the exquisite sensitivity of rt-PCR at detecting viral RNA that  D3 can prevent its detection in almost all patients of 25(OH) is  75 nmol/L. To me that points to extracellular acrions of anti-microbial peptides such as cathelicidin being extremely effective at inactivating the virus. This is innate immunity at work.

But it might worry the epidemiologists. Because high-D3 individuals cannot be recorded as having been infected, it screws up their numbers and models. That should not matter providing high-D persons cannot transmit the virus- which seems likely, but is not yet known.

Peter

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38 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

That looks most interesting, foster, and impressive!

But we should remember that association is not causation!      And I am concerned that this enormous study, over 200,000 people were tested, was funded by a commerial company, Quest Diagnostics and carried out by their employees.   Excuse my cynicism, but that might be magnanimous public service by the company, or self interest.  The claim to have confirmed the assocation across ethnic differences again was by association, with the patients' 'zip-codes'.   

Either way, and as always, needs confirmation.     But I'm gladder that I take a 'normal' dose of VitD supplement, with no need (IMHO) to take megadoses.

JOhn

The advised dose 400IU pd is based solely upon bone health. And it wont get near the  75 nmol/L needed to bottom out the rt-PCR signal  shown in the paper. I measured my 25(OH) after taking 2000 IU pd and reached 100 nmol/L but others I know needed 4000 to do that: individuals differ. I have blue eyes so may have northern european ancestors who evolved in the last 20k years a higher response to a given 25(OH)D. The concept of individualised response index is being mooted::  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076016303582

Holick in his book says he takes 3500 IU pd to reach 125 nmol/L, in the middle of the physiological range of 100 -150 nmol/L. Whats good enough for him is good enough for me ( 4000 IU pd, ca 140 nmol/L)

Peter

 

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6 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

That looks most interesting, foster, and impressive!

But we should remember that association is not causation!      And I am concerned that this enormous study, over 200,000 people were tested, was funded by a commerial company, Quest Diagnostics and carried out by their employees.   Excuse my cynicism, but that might be magnanimous public service by the company, or self interest.  The claim to have confirmed the assocation across ethnic differences again was by association, with the patients' 'zip-codes'.   

Either way, and as always, needs confirmation.     But I'm gladder that I take a 'normal' dose of VitD supplement, with no need (IMHO) to take megadoses.

JOhn

Good news John, you probably wont get rickets. I am as skeptical as anybody until we get a proper study which could take years and still not be conclusive but I got a chuckle out of this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/

Stan

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3 hours ago, foster461 said:

Good news John, you probably wont get rickets. I am as skeptical as anybody until we get a proper study which could take years and still not be conclusive but I got a chuckle out of this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/

Stan

Brilliant Stan, many thanks ! Peter

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Book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blinded-Corona-Excellent-JON-SNOW/dp/1783341955

by Prof John Ashton, I knew him slightly at uni: speaks his mind. Not read it yet but suspect SAGE gets a hammering, He was on  the box last night briefly.

Peter

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3 hours ago, foster461 said:

Good news John, you probably wont get rickets. I am as skeptical as anybody until we get a proper study which could take years and still not be conclusive but I got a chuckle out of this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/

Stan

That was 2003, science has jumped ahead now:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30545967/

Peter

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3 hours ago, foster461 said:

Good news John, you probably wont get rickets. I am as skeptical as anybody until we get a proper study which could take years and still not be conclusive but I got a chuckle out of this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/

Stan

17 years later we see the same Jill P Pell is a  turncoat

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7449523/

He who pays the piper...?

Peter

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Finland to be the first nation to exit the pandemic?

https://lockdownsceptics.org/vitamin-d-a-silver-bullet-to-get-rid-of-covid-19-lockdowns/

Finns already have average 80 nmol/L 25(OH)D thanks to food fortification. And the lowest C19 death rate in europe. But 80 nmol/L leaves half the population below the safe level of 75 . So this MD civil servant in their DoH is promoting supplements. Note that he expects herd immunity too, on the basis of the paper Stan posted above. 

Finland, safe to open for business for a few pence per person per day.........it looks possible.

Peter

 

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Hi Peter,

I have been following this interesting thread for sometime, in fact I went back 43 pages and read the lot to get up to speed. 

Having previously been prescribed vitamin D by a doctor, I considered that maybe in “ normal” life I might be borderline anyway for what is considered acceptable levels of vitamin D in the Uk. I have therefore started to take a D3 supplement such is the strength of the argument portrayed here.

Having followed the link and read the report attached to your latest post, I note the author states that he too is now taking a D3 supplement. He states this is 100 micro grams per day, my question is what dose is this if expressed is IU’s?

 

Regards Bob.

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1 hour ago, Bobbie said:

Hi Peter,

I have been following this interesting thread for sometime, in fact I went back 43 pages and read the lot to get up to speed. 

Having previously been prescribed vitamin D by a doctor, I considered that maybe in “ normal” life I might be borderline anyway for what is considered acceptable levels of vitamin D in the Uk. I have therefore started to take a D3 supplement such is the strength of the argument portrayed here.

Having followed the link and read the report attached to your latest post, I note the author states that he too is now taking a D3 supplement. He states this is 100 micro grams per day, my question is what dose is this if expressed is IU’s?

 

Regards Bob.

Bob, Full marks for perseverence with the 43 pages !

100 mcg is 4000 IU.

That is advised as safe by PHE

A Queen Mary Uni College, London trial is just starting using 3200 IU PD, and that would not be permitted is  it were unsafe

And European FSA says it is safe too:https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2012.2813

It is what I take too,along with most of the family oldies.

Peter

 

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Thanks guys,

prompt and informative as ever.

Peter, if I may......

I recall somewhere within the 43 pages you refer to vitamin D3 as a hormone, not a vitamin. Why is it that all the suppliers of the supplements quote “vitamin” on their packaging. Without taking up too much of your time, and perhaps to someone who can rebuild a TR overdrive, but has limited knowledge of biology, what is the difference between a hormone and a vitamin?

 

regards Bob.

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Hi Bob,

having just googled the difference it reads as if a vitamin is food for cells to help them keep ticking over

A bit like having weetabix for brecky.

A hormone is a messenger  and it tells cells what to do.

Rather simplistic but I;m sure Prof.Pete will give you the nuts and bolts of it.

 

Roger 

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12 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

Thanks guys,

prompt and informative as ever.

Peter, if I may......

I recall somewhere within the 43 pages you refer to vitamin D3 as a hormone, not a vitamin. Why is it that all the suppliers of the supplements quote “vitamin” on their packaging. Without taking up too much of your time, and perhaps to someone who can rebuild a TR overdrive, but has limited knowledge of biology, what is the difference between a hormone and a vitamin?

 

regards Bob.

Bob, D3 was given the name vitamin in the 1930s when it was identified in codliver oil in experiments feeding rats. Then it was discovered it was the same stuff as made by sunlight on skin and CLO began to be used to treat TB.

For many decades it was thought to have a limited range of biological activity -- as a vitamin would -until the genomics revolution in the '90s onwards. Then it was found that D3 switches on hundreds of genes, roughly 5-10% of out total, and researchers now refer to it as "the secosteroid hormone D3". Other vitamins do not act directly on gene expression, but D3 ( as 1,25(OH)D3 ) binds to its own receptors on the DNA of almost all cells in the body. The talk I gave to the local U3A ( not one could rebuild a gearbox, speaker included!) is here:https://u3asites.org.uk/files/b/berwyn/docs/vitamind3deficiency.pdf

The full impact of D3 on many diseases has yet  to be unravelled; check out vitamindwiki slides  in the talk.

Peter

 

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14 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Hi Bob,

having just googled the difference it reads as if a vitamin is food for cells to help them keep ticking over

A bit like having weetabix for brecky.

A hormone is a messenger  and it tells cells what to do.

Rather simplistic but I;m sure Prof.Pete will give you the nuts and bolts of it.

 

Roger 

Roger, that's bang on the money ! Peter

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Brilliant guys, 

Peter, that link to your talk suddenly looked familiar, having binge read the 43 pages I recall seeing it.

i had a salient lesson in awareness of vulnerability about 3 years ago, when I was struck down with encephalitis, and due to delayed diagnosis, a month pretty much in a coma before diagnosis, it’s been a long road back to normality.

As a result, and turning 60 this year, I don’t take health for granted anymore.......

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10 hours ago, Bobbie said:

 

As a result, and turning 60 this year, I don’t take health for granted anymore.......

The human body is truly an enigma.  It can fall many 1000's ft bounce of the ground and walk away (sometimes)

Other times, you sneeze, get a bleeding nose and die.

As you say - do not take health for granted

 

Roger.

 

 

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Again, trying to encourage a less myopic coverage of Covid matters, have a look at this.    The BCG vaccine is given globally to babies and children, as it is safe, and at least 50% effective in preventing TB   It has also been found effective against leprosy and some forms of cancer, as it stimulates other arms of the immune system as well as the production of antibodies.

A worldwide programme will give BCG to health workers, as a population highly likely to be exposed to Covid and to be infected.  Exeter Medical School is taking part in this BRACE Trial, and the investigators hope to have results by the middle of next year.

https://medicine.exeter.ac.uk/research/healthresearch/primarycare/brace/

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2 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Again, trying to encourage a less myopic coverage of Covid matters, have a look at this.    The BCG vaccine is given globally to babies and children, as it is safe, and at least 50% effective in preventing TB   It has also been found effective against leprosy and some forms of cancer, as it stimulates other arms of the immune system as well as the production of antibodies.

A worldwide programme will give BCG to health workers, as a population highly likely to be exposed to Covid and to be infected.  Exeter Medical School is taking part in this BRACE Trial, and the investigators hope to have results by the middle of next year.

https://medicine.exeter.ac.uk/research/healthresearch/primarycare/brace/

I seem to remember we all had BCG checks done at school those who reacted had the jab those that didnt were deemed not to need it.

Stuart.

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