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5 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

And then in a classic reverse ferret, said when challenged "I’ve not seen, endorsed or indeed even mentioned Matt Le Tissier’s Twitter post".    Maybe you didn't, Kevin, but you wanted to treat his ignorant views "with due respect."    

Le Tissier's assertion, that vaccines are damaging, is a classic example of how we may use the "Russel's Teapot" argument.    The philospher proposed as an absurd case that a teapot orbited the Sun, to show that those who put forward extraordinary claims have the burden of proof, not astronomers or in this case doctors.      I'm sure, Kevin that you will bring us the Le Tissier proof in due course.   Meanwhile, I will rely on those with more authority than a retired footballer.

Yes, Roger, a new treatment always has a potential for unexpected side effects or complications.   There was a cure for baldness, called 'sildenafil' that didn't help the follicularly challenged, but when they reported prolonged erections, became Viagra.     More seriously, the exceedly rare "vaccine-induced immune thrombocytopenia and thrombosis"  (VITT) has been noted in less than 200 recipients of the AZ vaccine in the UK, an incidence of 8 per million doses, less by many times than the risk of thrombosis in women who take oestrogen-based contraceptives.

The Yellow Card System was introduced long ago, to monitor rare side effects and compliactions of medical treatment.  Any one can register, no need to be a doctor, so if you have what you think might be a vaccine effect, or one of any treatment go to: https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/   You will be doing everyone a favour!

JOhn

Like I said John it was Mick’s article that he posted from the Telegraph that made an allusion to Matt Le Tissier. Just in case it didn’t sink in I’ll repeat to you once more, I don’t know anything about Le Tissier’s views or what he has said in the media , Twitter or otherwise, I have not studied anything by Le Tissier or quoted him other than knowing by way of a 3rd party (Mick’s article) that he had raised the subject. The last time I looked up Le Tissier he was playing for Southampton. I didn’t also say I treated his views with respect as I don’t have a clue what they are other than, as I said, via Mick’s post that he had raised concerns over his fellow athletes. 

Like I said you are the one who gets over-excited, hysterical and heavily opinionated over virtually any discussion on here and can’t seem to accept that others might have views. 

You know you are an extremely bigoted, arrogant and rude individual, and unless you can engage in pleasant debate go and bore someone somewhere else . I’ll ask you please not to address me or mis-quote me again. Thank you.

Kevin

 

 

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19 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Le Tissier's assertion, that vaccines are damaging, is a classic example of how we may use the "Russel's Teapot" argument.    The philospher proposed as an absurd case that a teapot orbited the Sun, to show that those who put forward extraordinary claims have the burden of proof, not astronomers or in this case doctors.      I'm sure, Kevin that you will bring us the Le Tissier proof in due course.   Meanwhile, I will rely on those with more authority than a retired footballer.

On the other hand, Jonathan Van-Tam told us at one stage that the vaccine trials had "gone to penalties". So I'd deffo back JVT's views on the use of the 4-2-1-3 formation by Inter Milan over that Le Tissier bloke's any day.

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Hi John,

you continue to run down Kevin as if it is some sort of sport.

Regarding a Vax denier aren't you equally so as a Hormone D3 denier.  I know what you response will be so don;t bother.

The authorities (except Pakistan) will not conduct a large scale RCT for whatever reasons but the very many small scale RCT's have shown repeated success far in excess of the majority of the treatments available at the moment.

 

Roger  

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Roger,

You didn't want me to respond, as you assumed you knew how I would do so.   This may surprise you - I "respect" the D3 school, especially as represented by Peter Cobbold, whose background and reading about it has given him an authority on the subject that few of us can claim.   I'm just not convinced.  

In contrast, despite Kevin saying that " I don’t know anything about Le Tissier’s views or what he has said in the media , Twitter or otherwise, I have not studied anything by Le Tissier or quoted him other than knowing by way of a 3rd party (Mick’s article) that he had raised the subject", he wishes to respect those views.      About which by his own admisssion, Kevin knows nothing.     That attitude has no authority and deserves no respect.

JOhn

 

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5 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi John,

you continue to run down Kevin as if it is some sort of sport.

Regarding a Vax denier aren't you equally so as a Hormone D3 denier.  I know what you response will be so don;t bother.

The authorities (except Pakistan) will not conduct a large scale RCT for whatever reasons but the very many small scale RCT's have shown repeated success far in excess of the majority of the treatments available at the moment.

 

Roger  

No surprise of course Roger, that John has suddenly announced that he ‘respects’ the D3 school, though do I remember him banging on about D3 Evangelism some time ago ( classic ferret scenario springs to mind).

I’m damned if I can see where I’ve proclaimed that I endorsed Matt Le Tissiers views even though John states  that I ‘ respect those views’?  (What views? I never sought his views or mentioned them).

 Well if the burden of proof lies with the proponent of a theory as John claims, then I’m still waiting for that definitive proof that I expressly respected Le Tissier’s views as outlined to me by John himself. Bearing in mind that I allegedly respected those views I went ahead with a double vaccination myself? Bit of a death wish ?

Kevin

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7 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Kevin,

Quote, " I do however think those concerns of Le Tissier for example should be treated with due respect."  From your first post in this series,

John

 

 

I think you’ve been hoist by your own petard. You’ve failed to prove that I endorse Le Tissier’s views, specifically that ‘I might be injecting a substance which could kill me’ I would not have had an injection, twice, and months apart, that I thought could kill me and I never believed it would do. That is a complete contradiction to Le Tissier’s views. 

So I need indisputable proof from you John that I supported those views? 

Do you believe then John, democratically speaking, that only those who support ‘your own’ views, those of John R Davies, should be the only views treated with respect, whilst the views of others be discarded as hogwash if they don’t fall into line ?

Le Tissier’s concern was that he would like the incidences involving collapsing during physical exertion, of fellow players investigated -period. Reasonable request. That’s as far as my reference to him went.

You claimed I supported his views so send me the proof.

Kevin

 

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Kevin,

Does the above mean that you have looked up the views on immunology and vaccine science of footballer Le Tissier?   Yet you "respect" his antivaxxer opinion based, it appears, on some exaggerated fears of the risks of the vaccines.     He should look at some 'life-time risks', for instance of death from driving, 1 in 204 in the UK, and after comparing that with the incidence of complications of vaccines, wonder if he should avoid travelling by car. That's not straight forward to compare with the risk of death by Covid in the unvaccinated, 850 per 10,000 and 26/10,000 in the fully vaccinated (ONS values)   As of September 2021, 1,645 people have died shortly after receiving one of the coronavirus vaccines (also ONS) of which 50 MILLION doses have been given.   That is a risk of death of 0.3 per 10,000. 

Respect is earned.    Show that you have studied the question and I will respect your opinion, even if I think it is sky-blue pink hogwash.  And reserve my right to say so.   My diver contact had a point, which I did not have the knowledge to help him with, so suggested their trade union.   Peter, and Roger, have studied their case for D3, which I think is an outside runner compared with  the vaccines.   I wouldn't bet on it, even if at 300:1 I could win a large amount - becsue I can already by being vaccinated.

You clearly think the same, or at least agree on the good odds offered by vaccination, bu Tissier cannot have considered the question for a moment, else he would know the above risks.

JOhn

 

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33 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Kevin,

Does the above mean that you have looked up the views on immunology and vaccine science of footballer Le Tissier?   Yet you "respect" his antivaxxer opinion based, it appears, on some exaggerated fears of the risks of the vaccines.     He should look at some 'life-time risks', for instance of death from driving, 1 in 204 in the UK, and after comparing that with the incidence of complications of vaccines, wonder if he should avoid travelling by car. That's not straight forward to compare with the risk of death by Covid in the unvaccinated, 850 per 10,000 and 26/10,000 in the fully vaccinated (ONS values)   As of September 2021, 1,645 people have died shortly after receiving one of the coronavirus vaccines (also ONS) of which 50 MILLION doses have been given.   That is a risk of death of 0.3 per 10,000. 

Respect is earned.    Show that you have studied the question and I will respect your opinion, even if I think it is sky-blue pink hogwash.  And reserve my right to say so.   My diver contact had a point, which I did not have the knowledge to help him with, so suggested their trade union.   Peter, and Roger, have studied their case for D3, which I think is an outside runner compared with  the vaccines.   I wouldn't bet on it, even if at 300:1 I could win a large amount - becsue I can already by being vaccinated.

You clearly think the same, or at least agree on the good odds offered by vaccination, bu Tissier cannot have considered the question for a moment, else he would know the above risks.

JOhn

 

John

For fear of repeating myself I have stated that I have not studied Le Tissier at all. I merely stated that if he wishes to draw attention to an issue where players are collapsing on the pitch then his view on that, in isolation, has to be respected and investigated. He is within his rights to do so but not according to you.

In that light it does not mean I knew anything about his politics on vaccines, adopt them or endorse them, which I didn’t. According to you I’m an anti-vaxxer presumably by way of your self-fabricated association between myself and Le Tissier, a product of your own mind not mine.

But then I’ve had a double vaccination which I was happy to receive?  How do you square these facts?

Further, I don’t think looking at other death statistics necessarily mitigates death rates from Coronavirus personally. I did however look up a statistic, prior to my first post. The first result was based on data from an Israeli Health Centre and concluded that only 54 vaccinated people under 50 met a criteria for myocarditis, out of 2.5 million. So if we considered how many people went skiing last year and how many died skiing what relationship does that have with Coronavirus?

My original post contained more questions than anything else, most notably was there a link between prolonged physical exertion in young athletes and either the disease itself  or the vaccine? Could they have been exposed to the disease but were still testing negative? I then mentioned public events such as the London Marathon if it goes ahead in 2022.  Something like 80,000 people take part. Would heightened physical exertion be a factor in young people who had either been exposed to or suffered from Covid, or had been vaccinated? Was there an unidentified risk in this regard?

Peter C has a great scientific perspective and understanding of this subject which I greatly admire and I know most do, but even Peter concedes that we do not currently possess sufficient data to draw accurate conclusions, we are still at the relatively early stages of speculation, understanding and enquiry. We should therefore allow people the liberty of asking questions and putting forward points of view without branding them as irresponsible idiots. 

I wouldn’t even pretend to be an expert on this disease or it’s vaccines which is why my post was ostensibly fielded only as an enquiry. 

Since you descended to the point of more or less trading insults for my post and along with your philosophical allusions to Russell’s Kettle and burdens of proof being the responsibility of the proponent, I still await your reply, and perhaps, if you can bring yourself to it which I very much doubt, an apology for acting the way you have.

Kevin

 

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Tissier is not "within his rights" to allege that collapsing footballers are the victims of Covid vaccination, any more than, as I said above, his freedom of speech rights allow him to shout "Fire!" in a crowded stadium.    Both are dangerous actions which can cost lives, unless he has evidence that the vaccines are dangerous, or has a box of matches.     I've posted above the current figures for fatalities after vaccination and they are tiny compared with other risks that we all run every day.   He does not have a valid case, for the general population.

On elite athletes, as I have also said, he is an isolated figure in his own field, as major football teams have been fully vaccinated without problems, but even all professional players are only a few.    The London Marathon, that you suggest will be a test, involves many more, but we need not wait until next year, as the 2021 event did take place, although delayed until October.   80,000 took part, half of them on the course and half at 'virtual' events elsewhere, some in the stress-raising special costumes beloved of fund-raisers.   This is a very respectable (!) number for any  medical trial.        The Marathon is over 26 miles, nearly three times longer than the average diatance run in a football match, that the elites run in a little over two hours, a greater stress than that for the footballers.    Of course there were DNFs, but none from the elites, and no one collapsed or needed more than restorative medical attention.    The proportion of competitors who were vaccinated is unknown, but even if we allow that some would be reluctant, most will have been vaccinated.     The evidence from the London Marathon is that vaccination, both among elites and amateurs, does not cause cardiac collapse.

So does Tissier have a sample of elite footballers whose vaccinations may be blamed for their collapses?     I'm normally reluctant to use the Daily Mail as a reference, but only two days ago, that interviewed Professor Guido Pieles, consultant cardiologist, of the Sports Cardiology Clinic at the Institute of Sport, Exercise and Health.   See: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10244297/Leading-cardiologist-says-cluster-collapses-footballers-likely-coincidence.html   Prof. Pieles says that there was no evidence that heart problems were occurring in footballers more frequently and he believes any cluster of incidents is a 'coincidence'.   

This was after a week in which three players collapsed during games, a tiny number that could easily be coincidence, as other reports confirm that even in the young age group of elite footballers (<30 years?) about 5% of the population suffer from cardiovascular disease (http://healthsurvey.hscic.gov.uk/media/78646/HSE17-CVD-rep.pdf page 9).     Some of this will undoubtedly be due to social factors, smoking, obesity, drug use, that the elites will not share, but even if that is only 2% then of the 600 footballers in Premier League teams then there are twelve of them at risk.  We have only seen three collapses recently, which reinforces Prof Pieles demand for more testing and monitoring of their cardiac health.   He is not the first cardiologist to point this out - I referred above to a paper from the US, prompted by a similar group of collapses on the field of play, that was from 2005!

In this Internet age, it is so easy for anyone, especially one with a following of fans, to pronounce on any subject even if they have little knowledge.   Those of us, and i include you, Kevin, who are willing to learn from authoritative sources, should counter such wild allegations.       "Respecting" their views supports them.

John

 

 

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On 11/28/2021 at 11:55 AM, john.r.davies said:

Tissier is not "within his rights" to allege that collapsing footballers are the victims of Covid vaccination, any more than, as I said above, his freedom of speech rights allow him to shout "Fire!" in a crowded stadium.    Both are dangerous actions which can cost lives, unless he has evidence that the vaccines are dangerous, or has a box of matches.     I've posted above the current figures for fatalities after vaccination and they are tiny compared with other risks that we all run every day.   He does not have a valid case, for the general population.

On elite athletes, as I have also said, he is an isolated figure in his own field, as major football teams have been fully vaccinated without problems, but even all professional players are only a few.    The London Marathon, that you suggest will be a test, involves many more, but we need not wait until next year, as the 2021 event did take place, although delayed until October.   80,000 took part, half of them on the course and half at 'virtual' events elsewhere, some in the stress-raising special costumes beloved of fund-raisers.   This is a very respectable (!) number for any  medical trial.        The Marathon is over 26 miles, nearly three times longer than the average diatance run in a football match, that the elites run in a little over two hours, a greater stress than that for the footballers.    Of course there were DNFs, but none from the elites, and no one collapsed or needed more than restorative medical attention.    The proportion of competitors who were vaccinated is unknown, but even if we allow that some would be reluctant, most will have been vaccinated.     The evidence from the London Marathon is that vaccination, both among elites and amateurs, does not cause cardiac collapse.

So does Tissier have a sample of elite footballers whose vaccinations may be blamed for their collapses?     I'm normally reluctant to use the Daily Mail as a reference, but only two days ago, that interviewed Professor Guido Pieles, consultant cardiologist, of the Sports Cardiology Clinic at the Institute of Sport, Exercise and Health.   See: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10244297/Leading-cardiologist-says-cluster-collapses-footballers-likely-coincidence.html   Prof. Pieles says that there was no evidence that heart problems were occurring in footballers more frequently and he believes any cluster of incidents is a 'coincidence'.   

This was after a week in which three players collapsed during games, a tiny number that could easily be coincidence, as other reports confirm that even in the young age group of elite footballers (<30 years?) about 5% of the population suffer from cardiovascular disease (http://healthsurvey.hscic.gov.uk/media/78646/HSE17-CVD-rep.pdf page 9).     Some of this will undoubtedly be due to social factors, smoking, obesity, drug use, that the elites will not share, but even if that is only 2% then of the 600 footballers in Premier League teams then there are twelve of them at risk.  We have only seen three collapses recently, which reinforces Prof Pieles demand for more testing and monitoring of their cardiac health.   He is not the first cardiologist to point this out - I referred above to a paper from the US, prompted by a similar group of collapses on the field of play, that was from 2005!

In this Internet age, it is so easy for anyone, especially one with a following of fans, to pronounce on any subject even if they have little knowledge.   Those of us, and i include you, Kevin, who are willing to learn from authoritative sources, should counter such wild allegations.       "Respecting" their views supports them.

John

 

 

John

Not sure whether your first paragraph is actually intended to be duplicitous or comical? You admit then that LT is within his rights to make a suggestion based upon his statement which you quoted to me, then wanted me to take ownership of, and defend it?

But even IF he’ possessed a box of matches that would not necessarily mean he is dangerous. If he struck a match it would still not mean he is dangerous, it could be for a cigarette, and if he set the stadium alight and shouted ‘fire’ he would still not be dangerous for shouting ‘fire’, but merely warning the crowd the stadium was on fire. His actions however would be subsequently considered a criminal offence of arson I am sure. 

Having said that, you have actually put something to me in the form of a newspaper article, which I have digested and concur with. I’ve taken that as answer to my original query if that’s okay with you? So thank you for that. 

You have not as yet fulfilled your burden of proof as you being the proponent of a theory that I endorse LT’s claim that regarding the vaccine  ‘‘he might be putting a substance into his body which might kill him’ ? Remember- you quoted that to me which I have not seen, have no interest in, and can’t be bothered to go looking for. And remember, I am double jabbed. Not a knee jerk and subsequently regrettable action but one taken over several months, and like you I presume, having considered the inherent risks between Virus v Vaccine.

Hopefully in future you will avoid the initial response and tirade of emotional outbursts you gave upon reading my post, where your heart is clearly ruling your head, and if you can or feel dispose to, provide a civilised answer as you have managed above. Such outbursts cannot be good for your cardiovascular health anyway.

Apologies for late reply but looking after a household of 6 people and a business does not give me the luxury of trawling the Internet day and night looking for stats and newspaper articles as it ‘might’ be in your case.

Kevin

 

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Kevin, I will continue to oppose careless statements about vaccines, and to offer evidence rather than opinion to inform my colleagues here.     

You seem to want to clear this discussion.   I hope I've made my point, even if you are unpersuaded of it being correct.

John

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  • 2 weeks later...

C-19.Impressive Real World Evidence for utility of D3, 25(OH)D, or 1,25(OH)D - pre-infection - from Andalucia.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-02701-5

The Discussion summarises earlier results. Note that innate immunity does not involve antibodies: cathelicidin ad other anti-microbial peptides act against all viruses. It is highly  unlikely that omigod would be resistant.

Peter 

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Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! 

"The Jab" DOES work, the risk of being very ill or needing hospital is almost zero after vaccine.   But our immune systems don't remember for very long, so the immunity fades, the quicker the older you are.   So, boosters.

As for the unjabbed putting others in danger, almost ALL in ICUs today's are unjabbed.   And there are still a lot of them, so ICU is not available for those who need it, post major surgery or when their asthma etc goes bad.   So they ARE putting others in danger.

So wrong, Crawfie as to be deeply unfunny.  Find some better ones, you know you can!

PS do you like my Santa hat?

Edited by john.r.davies
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The jab does work well against its designed target, delta. But efficacy against omigod has yet to be measured. And at some point theres likely to be further new variants, ones that evade the jab-induced antibodies and T-cell mediated immunity. We see this with the need for an annual flu jab. So jabbing has no end, until like flu the C-19 death rate becomes acceptable. Those of us who know about D3 actions on innate immunity do not regard the flu deaths each winter as acceptable and likewise C-19.

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5 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said:

The jab does work well against its designed target, delta. But efficacy against omigod has yet to be measured. And at some point theres likely to be further new variants, ones that evade the jab-induced antibodies and T-cell mediated immunity. We see this with the need for an annual flu jab. So jabbing has no end, until like flu the C-19 death rate becomes acceptable. Those of us who know about D3 actions on innate immunity do not regard the flu deaths each winter as acceptable and likewise C-19.

https://theconversation.com/omicron-evidence-shows-it-evades-immunity-from-earlier-infection-more-than-other-variants-173163

this does not look good, the antibody mediated defences from delta infection or the jabs seem to be weak agaisnt omicron. That leaves only T-cells to recognise and kill infected cells and so reduce severity

I note the data are from S Africa, gathered during their winter.

Peter

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ZOE COVID has issued another update from Prof Tim Spector, at: 

 

He reports among other things evidnece that Omicron is more infective, as Peter says,  with an R-factor (remember that?) of 2, far higher than any seen before in the UK, but that it is less severe especially among the doubly and triply vaccinated.    So much so that he warns us not to discount mild cold-like symptoms so as to protect others.    Reassuring perhaos for many here, infection among those at 70 or older remains very low!   

JOhn

 

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I commented on The Coversation article. SA likely has vastly better D3 status than UK, Compairng SA vs UK epidemiology is unwise without taking D3 into account. Its the first comment here: https://theconversation.com/omicron-evidence-shows-it-evades-immunity-from-earlier-infection-more-than-other-variants-173163

If Spector is using SA data on severity he may well regret that video ( though he is nto prone to self-doubt)

Peter

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I really do wish they would split ALL data by skin colour ie vaccinated versus non vaccinated, hospitalised versus non hospitalised, % of cases etc etc etc  all subdivided again by skin colour!!!!!

This  would give us a much better picture of the situation and how much we should take from these blogs as relevant to ourselves as individuals.

The reason I say this is that this data is from SA, can you compare the population there with the population in the UK…………???

2E760E77-9E3A-466D-AE6A-147E0977FEB6.png

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Edited by SuzanneH
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Very interesting video. All fingers and everything else crossed!

Meanwhile it reminds me of a question that's intrigued (/horrified) me for a while. In a future pandemic, might a country facing devastation by a highly lethal novel virus, but possessing bio-engineering capability that's in its infancy at present but presumably commonplace in the future, decide that the best countermeasure would be to attempt to create and release a bio-competitor pathogen based on the original pathogen but with both great transmissibility and reduced lethality?

Once deliberately released in one country, and spread across borders, the effect could either be hugely beneficial or of course... catastrophic unintended consequences.

You're welcome. Sleep well tonight. ;)

Nigel

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Dr David Grimes is a  retired consultant from Blackburn hospitals who in 30 year  career treated thousands of cases of severe D3 deficiency. He is outspoken in his condemnation of the lack of action to embrace D3 for covid-19. His latest blog analyses data from Israel that clearly show serum 25(OH))D levels below 50 nmol/L risk severe C-19 and death. http://www.drdavidgrimes.com/2021/12/covid-19-and-vitamin-d-strong-evidence.html  Half the UK population are below 50 in winter.

Sad to see D3 continuing to be ignored. But ignorance or ignoring is surely by now close to being a dereliction of duty by SAGE and numerous professors of PH, epidemiology and virologists.

At the grassroots level the D3 mssg appears to be getting out. City Assays who provide a £30 postal service for measuring 25(OH)D at home warn of a two-week delay in delivering results.

Peter

 

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Suzeanne, that information is available, see: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/updatingethniccontrastsindeathsinvolvingthecoronaviruscovid19englandandwales/24january2020to31march2021#:~:text=The rate of death involving,2.2 for males%2C 2.0 for   under "Main points"

image.png.92e55a83cffa2b96d07d1c147ce1cf0f.png

There are more charts and links to other pages on this UK Gov site from the Office of National Statistics. 

Another source is https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/covid-19  "Ethnicity and COVID"

  These data are not secret, not even hard to find!

John

 

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