Riders on the storm... My 1956 TR3

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

16 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Hi Chris,

That's bad news. The cylinder head nut standard torque is 105lb ft DRY which is the Triumph appied torque, this when applied to a lubed thread will apply approx 20% INCREASE in clamping force...that's another 21lb ft making a torqued fastener of about 126 lb ft. I know the ARP fastening will take that torque...but I'm not sure about the block material ! 

I've run with 110 lb ft torque to the cylinder head nuts applied dry and that's been ok, when I've rebuilt using the ARP cylinder head fastenings with lube I have only torqued to 90lb ft torque which with it's 20% increase in clamp makes a 108 lb ft clamped torque.

When I next get my hands on a scrap block I'm determined to extend the torque range until I manage to strip the block material and catologue the figure. Of course the crankshaft bearings surfaces would also need checking to see if the extra clamping force still allowed the crankshaft to be aligned once the extra block stresses were accounted for.

Also if you've tightened standard con rods with ARP fastenings it's possible the 20% increase in clamp may deform the big end clamped shape taking it out of round. I would apply that torque first to a secured con rod outside the engine (vice in protected grips) and then check the big ends for "out of roundness." For conrods I've used Unbrako cap heads with a splash of Blue Loctite (even this increases the torque marginally), torqued to the standard torques.

I've never fitted ARP to my engines only ever using original used Triumph studs and nuts. I do check the thread condition minutely and on the rare occasion I find a necked or galled thread I substitute the stud with another (who did you think bought these used engine ancillaries). I've never stripped a stud or nut in use and I've never had a returned engine from clients with a fastening failure. I guess I'm just lucky.

Micky

Thankyou for your Birthday wishes, I trust you have had a good summer.

Mick have you read any of these?

http://tr3a.info/Net.htm

Specifically

http://tr3a.info/Net_headTorquing.html

Peter W

[Motorsport Mickey]

3 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Mick have you read any of these?

http://tr3a.info/Net.htm

Specifically

http://tr3a.info/Net_headTorquing.html

Peter W

Yes Peter, the TR3a info from Greg broadly accords with what I said

“We have found Permetex "Anti-Seize" when used as a lubricant on the head bolt thread, washers and nuts, does not change the torque that is applied, but does help prevent the "sticktion" mentioned in the earlier posts, so that it becomes less necessary to loosen the nuts first during retorquing. So on a TR-4, we apply the anti- seize to the fine threads on the top of the stud, to the top surface of the washer and to the inside of the nut and its' bottom surface. Tighten the nuts using a normal torquing sequence to about 30 lbs. ft., then 50, then 70, then we go to 85 or 90. We use this as a maximum torque. WE no longer torque heads to 105 lbs. ft. as we have not found it necessary, and it only leads to broken and stripped studs and head nuts.”

and as the further info from Greg points out

“Using ARP moly based assembly lube paste on the head nuts and studs will require a reduction in torque of over 30% because it is so slippery. We have tried using the ARP lube and one time actually crushed the raised boss on a TR-4 head above the intake ports. The Anti-Seize works very well.”

I’ve always lubed with oil and moly mixed which gives a consistent lubricious covering, hence my reduction in torque by 20%. The extra slippy ARP mix I’ve never used.

Mick Richards

[Motorsport Mickey]

19 hours ago, Chris59 said:

No worries Mickey, I use the lube only under the nuts, where their face mate the head, not on threads, and never had any problems since my first wet liner rebuilt, some 20 years ago.

 

Yes, holidays in my holiday house in the French Alps were, as always, fantastic, thanks  

Chris,

If you only lubed the ARP under the nuts not on the threads the actual torque applied to the nuts will not be enough to take the ARP nuts and studs to stretch into their “elastic” range and maintain the torque to the components.

As you’ve said 20 years and no problems with your ARP fittings suggests standard items torqued correctly will do the job as well… which is what I’ve found.

Mick Richards

[EliTR6]

Thanks Mickey and Chris for the insightful exchanges. 

Before I take the head off, could just removing the rockers and pushrods again and trying to "unstick" the tappet with a rod of some sort work? 

[Chris59]

What is a "tappet", Eli ? Are you talking about cam follower ?

 

@Mickey, well, I might have been lucky 'til now, and I'll keep using ARP bolts the same way, unless I found a cheaper, but as reliable option 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Chris59

[Kiwifrog]

24 minutes ago, Chris59 said:

What is a "tappet", Eli ? Are you talking about cam follower ?

I always thought a tapett was a small hammer but I think Eli means the cam followers

Edited August 31, 2021 by Kiwifrog
spelling

[EliTR6]

I took a chance and copied the lingo from the Haynes manual. Tough crowd 

Worth a try? 

 

[james christie]

Tappet en français = culbuteur - I am aware it can mean something else!

Eli, don’t have blind confidence in the Haynes manual, although that drawing looks lifted from the Triumph manual. On occasion, their text leaves much to be desired!

james

 

[EliTR6]

18 minutes ago, james christie said:

Tappet en français = culbuteur - I am aware it can mean something else!

Eli, don’t have blind confidence in the Haynes manual, although that drawing looks lifted from the Triumph manual. On occasion, their text leaves much to be desired!

james

 

 

Agreed! I had a copy of the workshop manual but can't find it this evening 

As you can imagine, I'm not keen to remove the head if it can be avoided. The car runs great apart from the ticking, doesn't use oil, etc. 

[Chris59]

@EliTR6, you can lift a cam follower using a telescopic magnet, but you won't be able to see anything more, as it's the face in contact with the camshaft who might be damaged.

I told you, when we were on the beach : leave it as it is, except the rockers assembly, who is easy to rebuilt.

[EliTR6]

33 minutes ago, Chris59 said:

@EliTR6, you can lift a cam follower using a telescopic magnet, but you won't be able to see anything more, as it's the face in contact with the camshaft who might be damaged.

I told you, when we were on the beach : leave it as it is, except the rockers assembly, who is easy to rebuilt.

i know mate but it sounds terrible. like your diesel land rover

[Chris59]

You'd better try to use some Diesel fuel, then . (Bonjour à tes chéri(e)s ! )

[EliTR6]

Finally got round to fitting ltd fasteners to my 2nd hand tonneau (not my best purchase) 

It ain't pretty but it will keep the interior dry as the TR is sleeping outside for the next week or two. Madame's Mini has pride of place in the garage 

 

 

 

 

[EliTR6]

Wow, long time no post. The TR hasn't seen much use these past few months. Work has been brutal and the mini has pride of place in the garage so the 3 is hibernating at my parents place. Plus Dad's Citroën's magneto has packed up and it's blocking the TR in. 

The French side of the family can't travel to the family get-together near Nottingham for Xmas so I should have some unexpected free time on my hands and am hoping to tackle the ticking follower and the leaking timing cover. 

With @Chris59 we were wondering if the followers could be removed from the inside after removing the camshaft with the head remaining in situ?

PS : still waiting for the Norton to arrive and I've just bought a tr6 (single carb 650). And won't be seeing the merc on the road again before summer at the earliest!

At least the mini and the 500 are running well!

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by EliTR6

[EliTR6]

 

 

Neevr mind, just found this thread: https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/73179-cam-followers-remove-with-head-in-place/

 

20 minutes ago, EliTR6 said:

 With @Chris59 we were wondering if the followers could be removed from the inside after removing the camshaft with the head remaining in situ?

[EliTR6]

Hi all 

Car is still running great, I take it out for a spirited drive every couple of weeks and miss it dreadfully the rest of the time. 

Could seafoam help cure my sticking tappet? It's really bugging me! 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Eli, your ticking tappet.   Have you removed all the push rods and checked it is not a loose end fitting cup/ball in a push rod?   They come loose in service and cause clatter.   Best bit to know is they cannot fall out when installed and working.

To check each push rod for loose ends.  
Tap the push rod on a metal surface and it should ‘ring’ rather than go ‘donk’

Once you find the ‘donker’ try to pull the ends out to confirm the problem.   
Repair by replacement or thorough cleaning and suitable Loctite.   If you are so equipped a touch of TIG weld would also secure the end.   I suspect trying to silver solder it would be near impossible unless you can clean all the oil out the tube.  That means removing one end completely.

While they are all out check none are bent by rolling on a flat surface (marble kitchen work top?) and look for rise and fall of tube over the surface.  Replace as required.

Once you have eliminated the push rods start to think about the tappets and cam.    Think being possibly the best repair method.

Get out and drive it!

Peter W

 

[EliTR6]

26 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Eli, your ticking tappet.   Have you removed all the push rods and checked it is not a loose end fitting cup/ball in a push rod?   They come loose in service and cause clatter.   Best bit to know is they cannot fall out when installed and working.

To check each push rod for loose ends.  
Tap the push rod on a metal surface and it should ‘ring’ rather than go ‘donk’

Once you find the ‘donker’ try to pull the ends out to confirm the problem.   
Repair by replacement or thorough cleaning and suitable Loctite.   If you are so equipped a touch of TIG weld would also secure the end.   I suspect trying to silver solder it would be near impossible unless you can clean all the oil out the tube.  That means removing one end completely.

While they are all out check none are bent by rolling on a flat surface (marble kitchen work top?) and look for rise and fall of tube over the surface.  Replace as required.

Once you have eliminated the push rods start to think about the tappets and cam.    Think being possibly the best repair method.

Get out and drive it!

Peter W

 

 

Thanks Peter 

No I didn't know about push rod ends. Fingers crossed this is the problem, would be an easier fix than taking the head off!

I'll have a go next weekend 

Thanks again 

Edited March 13, 2022 by EliTR6

[stuart]

I had one tapping for a while on my 4a years ago and discovered the adjuster ball end had punched its way into the top cup of the rod and the rod was then going up and down with the tappet.

Stuart.

[EliTR6]

So I have 2 slightly bent pushrods, one banana shaped one and the jury's still out on the remaining 5. 

Could the one below have caused my tapping noise? End's all seem securely fastened although one has a small gouge in it (see 2nd photo). 

There's a classic car parts show I was hoping to drive to tomorrow, I'm going to see if I can bend them a bit straighter and if it cures the noise. And I'll order a new set ASAP. 

Also, how could this have happened? I've never over revved the car and the engine has only 11k miles on it. Oil pressure is great, timing spot on... 

 

[stuart]

Valve clearances set too tight to try and cure noises will do it.

Stuart.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

59 minutes ago, EliTR6 said:

So I have 2 slightly bent pushrods, one banana shaped one and the jury's still out on the remaining 5. 

Could the one below have caused my tapping noise? End's all seem securely fastened although one has a small gouge in it (see 2nd photo). 

There's a classic car parts show I was hoping to drive to tomorrow, I'm going to see if I can bend them a bit straighter and if it cures the noise. And I'll order a new set ASAP. 

Also, how could this have happened? I've never over revved the car and the engine has only 11k miles on it. Oil pressure is great, timing spot on... 

 

What condition were the pushrods when the engine was rebuilt 11 k miles ago?  
I’d be tempted to try to see if there was any debris in the tappet cup that push rod with the score came out of.   Maybe ‘feel’ the inside seat of the tappet with a knitting needle to determine if any grout is in there.  Perhaps fish with a magnet on a stick in case there is loose debris collected there that will attach to the magnet and come out.   Beware unseating the tappets, re seating is fiddly with the head on.

Looks good otherwise.    I have a couple of spare push rods I could post if you are stuck.
Peter W

Edited March 19, 2022 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Ian Vincent]

What sort of camshaft have you got?  If it a high lift one you could have coil binding on one of the springs.

Rgds Ian

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

15 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

What sort of camshaft have you got?  If it a high lift one you could have coil binding on one of the springs.

Rgds Ian

  I wondered that too.  You have to hope the builder of the engine and head reconditioner were aware of each other’s actions.

Piper 3TY, according to Eli 2 years ago

” I've fitted the switch. Fuel lines will happen soon.

I've been reading through the invoices left by the PO. It was shipped new to the US in 1956 when it was beige with a red interior.

Must have returned to the UK in late 80s/1990 as there is an invoice for floor pans and inner sills in 1990. The PO must have spent a few years restoring the car as the earliest MOT in the file is for 1995 with a mileage of just 2mi!

It had a full engine rebuild in 2002 but had only covered 5000mi since when i bought it. It seems like it had some overheating problems with a suspected blown head gasket in 2005 but I don't know what the outcome of this was.

It has a competition water pump and starter motor, narrow belt pulley, a later TR3A head  (diagonal slant under thermostat housing), TR4 stainless manifold, mild 3TY piper cam and HS6 carbs from a dollie sprint (fzx1257).

I was told that it's a stage 2 head and capacity is 2.2L but I've got no real information on the internals or head spec. There is a much older invoice for a full engine balance and a crank regrind (still only 7000 miles ago).

Pulls very well, doesn't use oil or water and everything feels nice and tight. No shakes or rattles. MPG was 27mpg on the trip home from Manchester driving at 60mph (no overdrive) and many hours of horrendous London traffic.

I've already put 500mi on the car which is more than the PO managed in 2 years! “

[Ian Vincent]

Continuing on the theme of valve springs, if you have triple springs (as would have been originally supplied for a Tr3a) they will almost certainly bind with a Piper mild road cam (don't ask me how I know).  Plus the triple springs aren't necessary unless you are going to go racing.  A set of TR4a double springs will work just as well and are far less likely to bind.

Rgds Ian