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Advice welcome - US TR4A project just arrived - engine seized


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Hi all - thought I ought to post a bit of an update on my project...….

Failure of ordered crane to arrive, and struggles to remove dog bolt, (and possible realisation of immensity of project taken on), as well as arrival on Covid and impact of life generally have all delayed work on my TR4A. However time, and benefits of some conversations with other members (thanks Rich)  has allowed me to think through where I am going with it, and get together a clear plan.

Original objective was, in buying and rebuilding this car, to allow me to learn something new, to free me from the drain of modern car ownership, to achieve something (a biggy), and hopefully end up with a driveable classic I could be proud of. yet I was always going to be limited by budget, condition of car bought, logistics (working on Mother's driveway as cannot find garage space), and my total lack of knowledge and experience. 

So plan is now to get car on road for next summer rather than this, after a full nuts and bolts and bare metal restoration, which, I now realise having worked over the car, and extensively read up on it and restorations in general, she both needs and deserves.

Whilst the engine is seized (and a worry) much of the general condition is good, and whilst every little item needs extensive cleaning, servicing, and some restoring, very little would appear to need replacement or major restoration.

To keep the project, budget, and my learning curve as tight as possible, now intend to keep the car as original as possible leaving options I had been considering such as O/D and RHD conversion alone - I can always revisit them once car successfully restored if budget permits.

Currently believe I can keep the total final cost down to somewhere between £15,000 and £20,000 depending on the unexpected. This is based on the old time/money/ quality triangle - the more time I can put into it, the more I can do myself, the less it will cost. This is exemplified by the paint job. Quality of result appears to be an outcome of time and work put into preparation, priming, sanding,, more sanding and with cellulose paints, polishing, rather than the skill of applying paint. Whilst a professional paint job will cost thousands, and even then the long term quality of it limited by the unknown amount and quality of preparation the professionals actually do, if I do it myself I can put as much work into getting the quality right as I wish, and keep the cost down to not much more than a thousand  (primers, paint, wax, and consumables at around £750, second hand compressor and new guns £350-400). (Found out that non ISO epoxy primers now available so feeling much more comfortable about doing DIY paint job without killing myself).

So as to progress ….

Whilst waiting on crane totally stripped car and managed to clean and service most parts, including such things as defunct starter (a few days spent paraffining greased up Bendex, replacing brushes, cleaning commutator, and generally cleaning off motor surprisingly gave me starter which seems to work good as new).

When (newly ordered) crane finally arrived last month managed to lift shell off chassis, and was pleasantly surprised to find a chassis and suspension with only apparently superficial rust on it. Hope to finish stripping rest of suspension (front end) of chassis this weekend (just waiting on a ball joint separator and spring compressor tool), and will then try to clean up chassis using mix of elbow grease and DIY blaster I picked up. Result should be at least good enough to tell me if I need to send it off for professional blasting or not. I will post pictures in a few weeks once done and see what you all think. Am removing all suspension parts to home where I can slowly clean, inspect and assess each part at my leisure. 

Whilst keen to get engine out and unseized (seizure possibly largely due to extensive rust on pistons and liners) and into it to get some idea of extend of work needed and cost of rebuilding, I held off even after crane arrived as struggling massively to get dog bolt out. Clearly if I could not get it out whist engine on chassis there was no way I would get it out if engine standing free. Weeks and weeks of lubricating, use of breaker bar, and electric 450nm impact wrench proved no use. Finally last week had a major result with second hand air impact wrench (Blue Point 750+nm airgun) and second hand compressor (Clarke Raider 100l, 14,4cfm) recently acquired (air compressor acquired with forward view of using for any blasting and for paint work).

Following success of releasing dog bolt lifted and separated engine and gearbox, but engine currently just sitting on new engine stand legs as was not confident where and how to mount it properly on stand - having now reviewed BFG's posts will be getting this mounted over next week or two so I can strip it down both for inspection, and to get it to a weight where I can remove it to my home for rebuild at my leisure.

Intention is to focus on getting Chassis, suspension, and bodywork stripped, cleaned, rebuild, restored and painted over the next three summer months, and then start to put it all back together in the autumn, and go to work on the trim and other cosmetics over the winter. Hopefully the engine, a gearbox and diff' service will come together throughout the summer over evenings when I am not working on chassis and shell. Am already starting to get a few clues as to work needed - the inside of the gearbox clutch housing was thick with oil so assume replacing the rear crankshaft oil seal will be just a small part of necessary work (This forum is so excellent - have already found posts regarding this which tell me where I can get the appropriate seal which does not require grinding of the crankshaft!).

Just to mention not planning to use blaster on body panels as may be too destructive and little effort I have so far made indicates current paint comes off fairly easily with stripper. Will need to be doing some panel beating on front valance (damaged in delivery of car whilst winching on and off of delivery vehicles!), rear boot and valance (looks like minor damage from a shunt), and floor (looks like damage from jacking of vehicle in wrong place). Also replacement of boot floor, rear deck forward sections, and sills which all have extensive rust - hoping to manage this myself spot welding using a MIG welder and online tutorials - the welding course I was going to put myself on was obviously another non event because of COVID. Some of the body panels need work on the "return edges" (the edges through which they are bolted on to the main shell) - at the moment I am unsure whether I should try and build these edges back up with weld, or use the flexible car panel edge strips I have seen advertised.

I hope to give another update in a few weeks - hopefully a lot briefer than this,  and am sure by then will be asking many more questions.

For now, for anyone still reading, some questions or request for advice re head...…..

Valve Seats seem OK but will check when new valves arrive (all valves were rusted and worn so will be replaced, but plan to get local machine shop to replace liners with hardened liners for lead free. However the picture attached shows condition of part of underside of head after cleaning. There is some pitting which seems to be where gasket would lie. Does this need skimming??? Also should I be trying to clean coolant channels myself or do I need to send this out to be done?? …. and is there anything else I need to do to head???

 

IMG_20200623_155612_resized_20200623_040728649.thumb.jpg.4f3ad2717b5cc244f5563569c4fd6ddb.jpg

Also there is some wear on manifold bolts (see pic), apart from the one bolt I sheared off in removing manifold, do I need to replace these??

IMG_20200623_160323_resized_20200623_040728417.thumb.jpg.fcacad4e9fd4cf50608da535d2668b4e.jpg

Finally, should I be trying to clean coolant channels myself or do I need to send this out to be done?? …. and is there anything else I need to do to head???

 

As ever all help, advise and suggestions welcome, and thanks for the interest.

Mark

 

 

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Good to read of your progress.

Manifold to head studs look ok. Not bent or rotten with rust.  

Worth getting the face of the head lightly skimmed to true it up.   Get machine shop to do the valve guides as they are renewing or recutting the valve seats.   Many say do not bother with hardened valve seats as they have not experienced problems on standard seats.   Piston and liners will be another issue.   Get the liners out as carefully as possible.   Inspect liner seats.   Lots on here about that issue.  Will you use new pistons and liners or just pistons and get liners bored to suit?   Cost difference may not be great but some say original liners are preferred.

Lots of help and advice available here if needed

Cheers

Peter W

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Hi Peter, thanks for quick reply.

I hadn't been considering re-bored liners (unless turns out to be necessary) just assumed would get new - I think there is a bit of difference in piston price if re-bored. Will read up about it and give it a think. - don't you sometimes wish there was only one clear answer and all advice was the same!

Good to hear studs OK, and will plan on light skim, valve guides and seats at machine shop.

Cheers, Mark

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See if you can unsieze the Pistons . You may get away with a re ring and flex hone job on the liners.  This relies on the Pistons not being scored or mangled.

That'll keep the cost down.

Cheers 

Peter W

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Hi Mark,

As you say it would be nice if there was only answer but alas there isn't.

There does come a point where you are just overwhelmed by it all and it seems futile to continue.

My advice for what it's worth is to list the jobs you think you need to sort and in the sort of order you think they should be done. Be realistic and highlight the jobs that you think you can do with advice and those you may need help. Take baby steps and make the projects small to begin with.

Create "joy" tasks that you know you can do as a reward for tasks you are struggling with.

Get yourself a white board. Plan the jobs and break them down in order of importance.

CREATE YOURSELF LOOSE TARGETS BUT MAKE THEM REALISTIC and include a contingency for the unforeseen.

All engines can be rebuilt depending on the amount of cash you throw at them.

As a lesson in determination I suggest that you watch the following inspiring video on youtube 

Rod

 

Edited by Rodbr
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Cheers Peter

Hopefully Pistons out soon which will be another major step forward.

Rod - thanks for constructive motivational advice, most of which I was already doing. I think current issue is that now car is mostly stripped immenseness of project has hit as there are so many jobs I could now get on with - shell, chassis, suspension, engine. Hopefully my plan to focus on chassis and shell this summer will work, and hopefully working at same time on engine, etc, will break up the monotony of the body work and enable me to see something achieved each week. 

Hadn't seen WreckRescue before but will be watching more - certainly more relevant than Classic Car Rescue where a small team of professionals throw an apparently unlimited budget at a car and turn it around in a couple of weeks. 

Will update you as things progress.

Cheers, Mark

 

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After the first few months of starting a task and finding three more needing to be done, I sort of stopped thinking of mine as a car, more a pile of bits that needed to be refurbished. It helped relieve the stress of the day job.

Pete

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If you have a £15k budget why not buy aRHD drive car that needs a little work? It would be much easier and from an investment perspective would be a way of saving your capital, at least that's what I tell my wife.

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Hi Jase - budget wasn't £15k to start!  ... and part of why I'm doing it was for the very experience of doing it - hopefully the satisfaction and achievement at the end (although that's looking a long way off).

Also for the £15K I should get a fully restored car, whereas when I was looking, none of the cars I saw at under £20k gave me the confidence that  they would  require  only a little work - I might end up spending well in excess of the £20k to get such a car to the condition I hope to get my US import up to. I may be living in clouds cuckoo land, but its a nice place to live - and as I said the project was as much about the experience as the investment (and to be honest the car was something of an impulse buy rather than a result of serious consideration). 

I'm sure I'll think much longer and harder next time....

(I'm not too worried about the LHD/RHD, gives me even more of a reason cross the channel, and I can always change it over if I get sick of it. I had actually been planning to change it to RHD and even managed to acquire a RHD metal dash back plate and dash before thinking I had enough on my plate and  would leave it LHD. I know it would be easier to change now than later whilst the car is stripped, but was just trying to reduce the workload. I've never been good at making decisions so may end up changing my mind again on this - particularly if I get any feedback from other UK drivers of LHD cars. 

 

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PLEASE CAN I HAVE SOME MORE ADVICEE ON UNSEIZNG MY ENGINE ???

Having now got my engine out it definitely appears that it is the pistons which are seized. I had hoped I would be able to unbolt the connecting rods so that I could remove the crankshaft and so get at the stuck pistons. Of course having now got the engine out I realise I can't get to one of the bolts on each of two of the connecting rods. I'm considering three options.....

1. Keep heating, soaking, working at pistons and liners for a few more months as it will be a fair while before I'm getting anywhere near putting engine back in.  OR

2. Accept that I was going to need new pistons and probably liners, etc, anyway, so get brave and cut through tops of pistons and through con-rod gudgeons, freeing con rods from pistons, allowing me to hopefully get crankshaft out and then get at what's left of the pistons and liners.  OR

3. keep trying number 1 until I start to need to get the engine sorted. 

Number 3 obviously sounds the more sensible, but I wonder if I am just putting off inevitable. 

All other advice as to what to do would be most welcome - I have so far avoided doing anything to aggressive to pistons am as worried about damaging crank.

In anticipation, many thanks

Mark

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Mark - whilst it appears you can't get a socket on the deepest conrod/big end bolt, can you get a ring spanner on it? I had this very problem on a previous engine but was able to get a combination spanner ring end on the big end bolt and using the trick of connecting two ring spanners together by putting the open ended end inside a larger ring spanner, I was able to get sufficient leverage to undo them.

Then take big end and main caps off , remove crank, and knock out pistons and liners complete - you can then take your time to free the pistons from the liners to salvage the conrods - forget about salvaging the pistons and liners - get a new set of 87mm ones fro TR shop for £255 - great value and more than adequate quality. If you can't be bothered to try and get the conrods out, get a set of the maxspeeding rods which are readily available for about £170

Cheers Rich

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Mark, with the cylinder head off you can work from above the piston. The corrosion you showed of that piston and liner shows they are now beyond economical repair, so after soaking in penetrating fluid (I use 50/50 mix of engine oil & parts cleaner ..shaken not stirred B)  ..and big drip tray under the engine) then, with a suitably shaped block of softwood to be used as a drift on top of those pistons,  a lump hammer will be very persuasive.   Your crankshaft is at 90 degrees so it will turn with no damage. 

Pete.

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38 minutes ago, Bfg said:

Mark, with the cylinder head off you can work from above the piston. The corrosion you showed of that piston and liner shows they are now beyond economical repair, so after soaking in penetrating fluid (I use 50/50 mix of engine oil & parts cleaner ..shaken not stirred B)  ..and big drip tray under the engine) then, with a suitably shaped block of softwood to be used as a drift on top of those pistons,  a lump hammer will be very persuasive.   Your crankshaft is at 90 degrees so it will turn with no damage. 

Pete.

+1

I also had a friend lever the crank round with a long length of angle iron bolted to the flywheel face, whilst driving the piston down with a block of wood and a club hammer.  Freed off quite quickly.

Peter W

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Hi Rich and BFG.

- I can just get a ring spanner on it, but its so deep into engine casing there was no room to turn the spanner and even if managed to turn it there would be no room for bolt to come out.

You have both, however confirmed  what I needed to know - ie that pistons and liners are scrap, and crankshaft won't get damaged if I go at it hard.

Will give it another go tomorrow or Wednesday and think I should be able to salvage conrods without too  much trouble. 

I spotted Piston and Liner deal at TR Shop thanks Rich, but assumed if necessary I would  replace with 86mm. I think I understand that together with other improvements a bigger bore can improve performance but is there any other reason apart from bigger is better why you advise 87mm rather than 86mm? I'm happy to go with the advise , just wondering....

As ever, many thanks, will let you know how  I get on with the removal in due course.

Cheers, Mark

 

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Mark  - 87mm are same price as 86mm so you get a little extra torque for free - nothing else! I don't think there are any other extra costs associated with doing this, unlike with the 89mm option.

Cheers Rich

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On 6/29/2020 at 12:21 PM, Mark Richardson said:

I spotted Piston and Liner deal at TR Shop thanks Rich, but assumed if necessary I would  replace with 86mm. I think I understand that together with other improvements a bigger bore can improve performance but is there any other reason apart from bigger is better why you advise 87mm rather than 86mm? I'm happy to go with the advise , just wondering....

The 87mm pistons and rings supplied are 86mm +0.040" sets ..and unless +0.050 or +0.060" are also available (..and I don't know, I haven't looked) - this is worth considering in light of not being able to get the next size up in piston rings should you need to have the cylinder bores honed at any time in the future.

Pete.

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Hi all - just to report finally succeeded in 'unseizing' engine.

Helpful advice and confirmation that pistons and liners now just scrap metal, I went at it with a little more vigour.  

Hammer and soft wood had no effect from below, nor did lump hammer and assorted chisels from above. Finally managed it using the lump hammer on a long crow bar from below which, without too much effort, drove the pistons and liners out from below.

Have yet to try to salvage con rods, but pleased to see crankshaft turned freely once released from pistons, so hopefully (touchwood), engine is not going to blow my budget. 

I will be cleaning up and checking over engine (using workshop manual as guide) over next few weeks, and am sure will be looking for more advice then.

Meanwhile, have also started to de-rust the chassis. It all appears solid, but noted the top and sides of the profiles slightly pitted whereas bottom/underside of profile nice and smooth - I assume pitting is from rust, but wondered if possibly a higher finish steel was used on the underside? possibly somebody with more experience of this could comment? I don't think the steel is compromised as pitting is light - just enough to make cleaning a pain. Also got half a dozen small dents in the profiles none more than a couple of inches across and none more than about and eight of an inch deep - I hoping I can ignore these and don't need to reinforce these parts of chassis - again any comments welcome.

Thanks again for all the help

Mark 

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15 hours ago, Mark Richardson said:

Meanwhile, have also started to de-rust the chassis. It all appears solid, but noted the top and sides of the profiles slightly pitted whereas bottom/underside of profile nice and smooth - I assume pitting is from rust, but wondered if possibly a higher finish steel was used on the underside? possibly somebody with more experience of this could comment? I don't think the steel is compromised as pitting is light - just enough to make cleaning a pain. Also got half a dozen small dents in the profiles none more than a couple of inches across and none more than about and eight of an inch deep - I hoping I can ignore these and don't need to reinforce these parts of chassis - again any comments welcome.

Thanks again for all the help

Mark 

Same steel used throughout the frame. best way to check how good the steel is even after blasting off is use a small toffee hammer and tap all the way round the chassis. If it goes "Dink" its fine but if it goes "Donk" then its rotten, if there is a dent just on the side of the main chassis rails where the turret support bar joins it then you would be advised to do some check measurements corner to corner and end to end as they are tell tales of a clump in the front which can twist the front suspension turrets. Theres often dents underneath which are from clumsy jacking or off roading! While your at it if its an IRS car then re-enforce the diff pins, if a solid axle then thats not applicable. Also check the front lower inner suspension box mounts to make sure they are two bolt fixings not singles.

Stuart.

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On 7/8/2020 at 3:23 AM, Mark Richardson said:

Hi all - just to report finally succeeded in 'unseizing' engine.

Helpful advice and confirmation that pistons and liners now just scrap metal, I went at it with a little more vigour.  

Hammer and soft wood had no effect from below, nor did lump hammer and assorted chisels from above. Finally managed it using the lump hammer on a long crow bar from below which, without too much effort, drove the pistons and liners out from below.

Have yet to try to salvage con rods, but pleased to see crankshaft turned freely once released from pistons, so hopefully (touchwood), engine is not going to blow my budget. 

I will be cleaning up and checking over engine (using workshop manual as guide) over next few weeks, and am sure will be looking for more advice then.

Meanwhile, have also started to de-rust the chassis. It all appears solid, but noted the top and sides of the profiles slightly pitted whereas bottom/underside of profile nice and smooth - I assume pitting is from rust, but wondered if possibly a higher finish steel was used on the underside? possibly somebody with more experience of this could comment? I don't think the steel is compromised as pitting is light - just enough to make cleaning a pain. Also got half a dozen small dents in the profiles none more than a couple of inches across and none more than about and eight of an inch deep - I hoping I can ignore these and don't need to reinforce these parts of chassis - again any comments welcome.

Thanks again for all the help

Mark 

Whatever you do, have the crankshaft crack tested by a professional. This one looked good before the crack test showed up a loud expensive noise hiding under one of the big ends.

TR4 Crankshaft crack test.jpg

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That crack looks very odd indeed.   Cracks can go off at odd angles but those look extreme.

Also there appears to be no journal to web radius.

The usual crack on the TR 4 cylinder crank is at the #4 big-end journal to web radius and it runs is quite a straight line for the best part.

 

Roger

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